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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:02 am 
Jim, in other words... FIGHT!

What about power though? Theres alot of talk about how to develop power and how to transfer it, there is even some math formulas describing it, but these formulas do not take into account the randomness of a moving target (at least none that I can see). Sure, we can practice hitting a bag, or a board, but as Bruce says, "boards don't hit back", well, they don't duck and slip either or charge you. Now, I can hit pretty hard, but last Friday when I sparred this young kid, I just couldn't connect my power to him. He moved really well, had great rythm, and he was just too goddamn fast for me. I'm sure some of these masters are probably reading this saying, "well.. your just an egg shell, not like me, I could have breathed that youngster over with chi balls from my mighty lungs"... yeah, ok.

I mean, thats nice that you can make a loud slap on the makiwara, but if you can't hit a moving target, you ain't schit.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:09 am 
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The Bronze Dago wrote:
BTW, Jim, Laird, what is "Chi Sao"? I'm looking at a video I got called "explosive Chi Sao" by Gary Lam (wing chun dude?) and it's pretty cool! He keeps saying Chi Sao and I have no idea what He is talking about.


Yeah I see it coming in.. :lol:

Chi sao is what I was secretly writing about in my last post... ;)

More later.. :)

_________________
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:23 am 
You see the "Wally Jay" one too? :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:57 am 
Tony chi sao is sticking hands or sticky hands as some Uechi folks call it. Its push hands on steroids. Basically it an exercise where one explores the space between two adversaries.

You learn how to preempt attacks by occupying the space before your opponent can. Your opponent must use the space to deliver the strike if you fill the space they can not deliver the strike. You learn to read your opponents intentions via tactile sensitivity. If your opponent retreats you follow. Lots of absorption guiding stuff goes on.

If you loose contact with your opponent it’s like being blind you must enter and touch to read.

Just my take, good stuff! Jim can explain it in detail, I just my take on it.

http://www.wck-media.co.uk/general//gl_pak_sau_clip.mpg
http://www.wck-media.co.uk/general//gl_ ... p_512k.wmv
http://www.wck-media.co.uk/general//gl_tan_512k.wmv

http://www.wck-media.co.uk/general//WingChun_1.wmv

I really like how Gary moves so here’s some more!

http://www.wck-media.co.uk/general//gl_bui_512k.wmv
http://www.wck-media.co.uk/general//gl_push_512k.wmv

If you ask me the first splinter group from Uechi changed their name to WC. :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:06 am 
Hi Tony:

All is cool I am on the same page now. :D

Before I respond to the great questions I want to refer to the Kata/combat discussion.

Kata: Is the library of our style in that it gives us all the body mechanics, movement, tools and (most important) the generation of lines of force.

But I agree entirely with Jim that it cannot teach you combat. Kata gives you the tools for combat. The generation of lines of force is only as effective as the applications of the lines of force.

To formulate how to apply the lines of force you need to have principles of self protection. From there you go into the study of weakness in the other parties because this helps you know how to apply the lines of force.

For this you need partner work.

“Rick, what do you do about timing and rythm in your applications? As you know, it's an important aspect of application knowing "when" to actually do something. Dan Kumite doesn't cut it because there is no randomness to it (although it's ok for beginners),”

I don’t do Dan Kumite anymore so I will leave any comments on that for those who do and want to provide feedback.

I work on drills that always follow a progression from some prearrangement to none. These are drills set up to focus on a specific line of force either coming at you or being used by you. It is important to note we do not do these until they are memorized. I believe in learning to read and apply principles rather than any attempt at specific responses for specific attacks. (Please note that training specific responses for specific attacks is also supposed to break through that barrier and allow you to simply apply principles. I just take a very different approach to the same goal.)

1. The drills start with a predetermined action either you are attacked or you are being attacked. The response is individualized with any alterations needed for the people to make them work. If one person is a male over 200 pounds and another a female just over a hundred pounds then often the responses need to be adjusted to fit them.

2. This is repeated and then there is usually follow ups that are generated from your initial response. This is guided for newer students but the more experienced students are supposed to explore different flows.

3. The attacks generally start to speed up.

4. The lines of force are kept similar but then the specific attacks shift.

5. We shift to different lines of force.

6. We move to impromptu attacks.

This is very general.

We work a great deal on responding and timing.

We work on all this from different distances. For instance a person shooting from a distance is different to read than a person in clinch distance shooting.

We work on different a style of drills that begin slowly and are totally impromptu but then the speed picks up.

Reading an attack is something that takes either innate skill or training to do.

You must read an attack to apply timing and rhythm.

I should note that the progressive drills progress in the span of a class. Clearly the level of the student dictates what is required of them but everyone has to move through the drills.

There are a number of threads on some of the drills we do and you will find in all of them this progressive approach.

Sorry Tony this is a really poor response. :oops:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:10 am 
Wow lots more posted.

“What about power though? Theres alot of talk about how to develop power and how to transfer it, there is even some math formulas describing it, but these formulas do not take into account the randomness of a moving target (at least none that I can see). Sure, we can practice hitting a bag, or a board, but as Bruce says, "boards don't hit back", well, they don't duck and slip either or charge you. Now, I can hit pretty hard, but last Friday when I sparred this young kid, I just couldn't connect my power to him. He moved really well, had great rythm, and he was just too goddamn fast for me. I'm sure some of these masters are probably reading this saying, "well.. your just an egg shell, not like me, I could have breathed that youngster over with chi balls from my mighty lungs"... yeah, ok.”

This is why you have to move on from such foundation conditioning drills into advanced drills where you are both moving.

You should also work on drills where you are striking through being hit as well.

It is also why contact is an important part to be worked into each and every drill.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:48 am 
http://www.moyyat.com/chisao.html

http://www.wtny.com/training_chi-sao.php

http://www.chisao.com/main/


But I agree entirely with Jim that it cannot teach you combat. Kata gives you the tools for combat. The generation of lines of force is only as effective as the applications of the lines of force.

To formulate how to apply the lines of force you need to have principles of self protection. From there you go into the study of weakness in the other parties because this helps you know how to apply the lines of force.

For this you need partner work.

:lol: chi sao to some partner drills to others. Boils down to the same activity this is the stuff that teaches you the system it’s were you go hands on against a non cooperative partner. It’s were you learn to apply what you have practiced in kata.

If it’s 100% scripted it has little value IMO. If it’s 100% scripted then it’s just a 2 man kata and useless because the EBG on the street won’t respond correctly.

http://www.jkd-kbh.dk/video/karate.wmv


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:12 am 
Laird posted some great clips.

If we break the Wauke down into it bits and pieces:

(At the end I relate this to the clips Laird posted.)

The Major Arm

Movement One: Drops downward from a defensive position with the palm toward the body so that at the end of the movement the hand is slightly laterally rotated (angled to the outside of the body - thumb/palm rotates in towards the body). The arm has now dropped so that it is in line with the outside right edge of the body. This is accomplished with by a rotation and sinking of the knees which drives the qwa (the line between the pelvis and the thigh) which drives the shoulders which drives the elbows.

Movement Two: The arm then is moved across the body until the outer edge of the hand is inline with the opposite outside edge of the body. The palm begins to rotate back so that it is directly facing the body. Again this movement is done with a rotation and sinking of the knees.

Movement Three: The arm then begins to rise and follow an elliptical pattern out away from the body. This ellipse is set on an inclined plane with the top portion tipping away from you. The arm moves along this ellipse with the forearm shearing/cutting a path up and outward. As the arm shears through the top portion of the ellipse, it drops/rips back into Sanchin position. The ellipse should never exceed the edge of your body, but should cover shoulder width and head high (it is like tracing an outline of your body.) Again this movement is done with a rotation and sinking of the knees.

A variation of this movement is to raise the arm to the first shoulder with the palm up and then rotate the palm over as you complete the movement. This should be performed much like the Heaven Palm of Bagua Zhang.

The Minor Arm

Please note that in the full Wauke movement the Major and Minor arms as performed in forms will move almost simultaneously and match the movements One, Two and Three respectively. The knee actions that power these movements will also be the same as for the Major Arm movements. This is what the Taiji classics refer to as being “in harmony”.

Movement One: The forearm is brought across the body until it reaches the centre line. Make sure that the arm does not come in toward the body but maintains its position and even appears to press outward. This movement is done with the knees and the guiding arm moves outward NOT straight across. This increases your window of opportunity in deflecting an incoming blow.

Movement Two: The arm begins to rotate the palm inward and circles until the palm passes in front of the face ending at the edge of the body (fingers pointing up).

Movement Three: The arm rotates rolling/circling back out in a very thin ellipse of its own to come back into Sanchin position.

Taken from: http://www.wilsonkarate.com/palms.html

So look at this first clip:

http://www.wck-media.co.uk/general//gl_pak_sau_clip.mpg

His left arm performs the first movement of the Major arm droping down to control while his right arm performs what “could” be the third movement of the Major arm.

Now this clip:

http://www.wck-media.co.uk/general//gl_ ... p_512k.wmv

Here we first see a quick short third movement of the Major arm and a strike which we could perform as another short third movement of the major arm.

You will also note at the end the first movement of the minor arm used to off centre and control the opponent.

Now this clip:

http://www.wck-media.co.uk/general//gl_tan_512k.wmv

The first interception uses the third movement of the marjor arm in the Heaven palm position.

Look at the palm and edge of palm strikes – first movement of minor arm and third movement of major arm or minor arm..

Now this clip look at the clearing used and you can see Wauke all over it:

http://www.wck-media.co.uk/general//WingChun_1.wmv

Again watch how he contacts, clears and controls the arms:

http://www.wck-media.co.uk/general//gl_bui_512k.wmv
http://www.wck-media.co.uk/general//gl_push_512k.wmv

This is WC. Is it no wonder Jim seems to have better grasp of the way to use the Wauke than some Uechi folk?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:54 am 
I have a video from this guy. I'm going to take a closer look at it this weekend.

Is there much kicking in this style?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:25 am 
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Chi Sao, in this case WCK chi sao, as there are other sticking drills done in other styles, means sticking hands and refers to the entire range of sticking drills in the system. Most people really mean Kiu Sao or Luk Sao when they say Chi Sao, these are the intermediate to advanced two handed sticking drills.

Chi Sao is the crown jewel of WCK, it's simply amazing. It's main function is to minimize reaction delay in combative training though development of tactile sensitivity.

What the founders did was essentially create one drill that incorporates 90% of the entire system, all it's tools, all concepts, all attributes, and binds them together in one dynamic energy drill, in fact nearly every movement from all forms can be used in chi sao including all weapons, fists, palms, elbows, shoulders, head butts, and later, leg attacks, leg kicks, leg sweeps, leg jams and leg traps are added.

One key difference between conventional partner work involving attack and defense is that all of these components, attack, counter attacks and counters to those attacks happen in a non patterned and fluid manner such that there is complete continuity and no predetermined pattern or length of engagement. This trains the students to move from the start of an attack or counter attack, though the resistance phase and finally into a finish phase, this is called Fan Sao, ‘following hands’ meaning that the training is continuous and flows like water. The opposite of this is Sun Sao, which means ‘single hand’ where one trains to use a particular single technique against a particular attack. This kind of training while used to supplement outside work is considered fragmented and incomplete. In Chi Sao there is no single attack and defense rather as in real combat one trains to work against resistance and continuing to flow using whatever changes are required to gain and then maintain control of the line in order to complete the attack with multiple following attacks.

This name ‘sticking hands’ is somewhat of a misnomer since when doing Chi Sao the idea is not to stick to the opponent’s bridges but rather to fill the center with attack.
The secret of what makes this possible is the neutral energy strategy that gives the student a visceral reference point for all attacks and counter attacks. This energy strategy can be likened to two people facing each other with high pressure water hoses; So long as both people point the hoses directly at each other’s center they cancel out and both people stay dry. However the moment one person deviates or fails to maintain his precise targeting he leaves the centerline and gets soaked with water. Similarly chi sao trains the student to use neutral spring energy with respect to the centerline. If one person wishes to attack or defend sloppily they will use impure energy to move your arm off the line, this means that they are leaving the line. When this happens there is an opportunity to take advantage of this ‘impure’ attack or defense. This allows the practitioner the opportunity to use this error and fill the line with an intercepting attack of their own. At advanced levels the practitioner’s hands and body will respond, attack and change before the conscious mind is aware of what is happening. Attacks and intercepts may be countered by the partner and may continue in freestyle Chi Sao until one person gains complete control of the line with an attack or until a stalemate occurs.
From a practical standpoint here are some of the attributes that are trained into the student in Chi Sao:

Trains student to ‘let go’ and allow their hands and body to respond naturally unhindered by slow conscious thought.

Trains use of multiple movements simultaneously for structural speed doubling.

Trains advanced body structure to fill space and time.

Trains hands and body to work as one unit or separately as needed.

Trains all body mechanics and movements from forms in a dynamic manner against resistance.

Trains tracking, used to follow, face and maintain distance and tactical positioning against resistance.

Trains optimal lines mechanics of short power generation especially when encountering resistance on the bridges and body.

How to move though ranges using leveraged tools, positions and geometry to destroy structure and balance.

How to target the nearest opening naturally and automatically.

Trains to feel the error of the opponent, to see the opponent as a ball of energy and how to use that to enter for safety.

Trains the student two use rhythm and timing/broken timing as a weapon.

Conditions the bridges and the body though actual attacks and counter attacks.

Provides a measure of safety for hard contact inside because of improved levels of control gained from close proximity and contact references.

-------

Well lots more could write but that’ll do for now..

_________________
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:30 am 
Interesting stuff... i'd like to try that. Can you do it with gear on and pop your partner in the head or something?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:30 am 
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The Bronze Dago wrote:
Is there much kicking in this style?


Actually not a lot of kicking but lots of leg training (similar to leg fencing) if you get up to it including Chi Gerk or sticking legs which later on gets combined with Chi Sao...

The whole purpose of the kicking and leg training is to gan control of their kicking attacks or to defeat their kicking attacks in order to enter.. Kicks are normally NOT used to enter but better used while inside using the opponent for balance support.. These are called the 'invisible kicks' because the opponent cannot see them from inside.

Everything in the style does the same thing: Clear, Enter and Finish...

_________________
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:36 am 
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The Bronze Dago wrote:
Can you do it with gear on and pop your partner in the head or something?


Beginners usually stick to the body for major contact and to focus on proper mechanics etc but later head contact is also used to varying degrees and sure if you wanted to you could use gear.. :lol:

But single pops don’t count.,.. you must apply continuous follow-ups to demonstrate full control of the line.. :)

_________________
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:06 pm 
JimHawkins wrote:
But single pops don’t count.,.. you must apply continuous follow-ups to demonstrate full control of the line.. :)


Now that I like! No such thing as a "follow-up" in Uechi, as far as I can tell. Everything is based on the shoken of doom technique. Theres always talk about power this and power that... but watch a Uechi person try to articulate power generation over a birage of 3 techniques, better yet, watch them demo it on a bag or on a live person with a body sheild on. You will see the power taper off exponentially.

In my 3-minute rounds on the heavy bag, I've worked my way up to throwing near a dozen varying techniques at random (depending on what my body position is) in short intervals and all with the same, if not more power (hopefully). That concept, is definatley not Uechi.

Uechi people get there fighting concepts from those bankai, and kumites, and sometimes point sparring.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:36 pm 
“Now that I like! No such thing as a "follow-up" in Uechi, as far as I can tell.”

Uechi is what you make. Follow ups are there people just have to train them.

This is something I insist on.


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