sanchin and the phalanx

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sanchin and the phalanx

Postby hoshin » Fri Nov 04, 2005 10:30 pm

i just wanted to post something i think about and teach quite often. i feel it might be best suited for this forum and would like to hear others opinions and comments.

the traditional sanchin stance that i was shown orients the shoulders and hips square to the front. i feel there is a combat reason for this. studies have shown ( though can be disputed) that in C.Q.B the normal offensive reaction is to take a squared position as opposed to the weaver stance.
the Greeks and Romans used the phalanx (rows and colums) in different ways to help accomplish this "squared' position. in combat we know the fight or flight patterns. i belive this head on method helps diffuse the flight while reinforcing the fight. on the battlefield the best way to gain the moral advantage is to take his flanks. so why then would you want to use a stance that gives the opponent your flank! as the physical and moral pressure increases a bladed stance will give way to a side position and then a cover and run moral reaction. once you start running you cant stop without "giving" and impaling yourself on the enemys pike or sword.
i do understand the blading concept in a firearms confrontion ,to make a smaller target zone, however in actual hand fighting i belive this concept falls short. useing the phalanx gave the Romans a method to fight in a controlled manner that the babarians did not have. it can be argued that the phalanx did not work , that the front rows fell to the ground in fear and the last rows ran long before they came in contact with the enemy. love to hear comments.

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Sanchin and the Phalanx

Postby JOHN THURSTON » Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:53 pm

I Would indeed seem clear that formations using relatively short weapons would utilize either a straight forward, rearward foot strtraigt stance or a stance like sanchin with forward foor only stlightly and the rear tunned no more than about 45 degrees.

Roman Formations from the Conguest of Gaul into the indefinte future would have used this stance. A Hoplite using a 8" Dory or Longer (in macedonian formation) "Sarissa" which could be up to 16" in lengnth and much more heavily built than the later 12" Kontos.

Phillip and Alexender's adoption and adaptation of Epamiondas's Theban Heavy Phanlanx would have seen, i think, a useof a short horse stance such might be used in you horizontal elbow strike.

The later Greek planlagist, "pre successor but after Platea) since the thrusting work could or would have be done over hand, Using the 8" Dory would close up and square off to increase the penetration of the is likey.

ANother likely see:

deploying in phalanx-naturat stance
preparing for engagment (while stationary) a sanchin like stance.
Delevering the overhand thrust----short to long horse stance and recover. As in any weapons fight, if you do not recover blindingdly fast atfer the extension---you were vulverable. If you could not find a way to extend, you were uselless.
In this particular time ONLym Phanlangites had abandandoned almost all body armor, except the helmet and, maybve for the front rankers, a single greave for the forward (normally left) leg, and the vvery large and heavy shield (hoplon) from which hoplite took his Name.

More later[/quote][/i]
Last edited by JOHN THURSTON on Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Phalanx and cohort

Postby JOHN THURSTON » Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:21 pm

OF course you are right a discilpined and amored force of 600 900 men would give babarians a problem.

The Maniple was discarded as more than an adiministrative body after the time of Gaiuis Marius at the latest A the 6 manipiple cohort replaced it as the basic manuever unit. THe original the line of the legion (before being r

Before that time Legions deployed based on the Maniple. (approximately 3 centuries of 128 men commanded by a centurions) itself a member of a legion containing about 70 maniples arrainged in three checkered lines. Each Cohort was about 680 men. except for one reinforced Cohort as a reserve. "Veeites" light armed troops and cavalry was either expected to take poiont of cover flank. There were usually at least 6 cohorts in a legio

Each line of men in the older leghad a name 1st line="principi"
2nd line "triari" (?)
3rd line "Hastati" armed with the 6' Hasta spear instead of the Pilum.

A quick glance at the actions of the phalangites before Troy;s gate (where the well armed Myceanan time Greeks were a swarming mob and the Their Phanlanx fast as their flaxes were secured.

The major command when this closely pressed was probably "Hold Ranks" Then "push". ( remember that the spear was not always used 'couched (held under the elbow) but wielded with an over hand stroke.

Because off this, in a defensive situation especially. a normally armed phalanx could form a Three sided square or even a hollow square.

As found in Teutoberger Ward the Roamn formation "in etremist the "orbis".

We would not know even this except, and I make an assumption here; Herrman (Arminius) left the Romans to rot where they fell.
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