The Forgotten Holocaust

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The Forgotten Holocaust

Postby JOHN THURSTON » Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:35 pm

Let me be blunt. I f this thread does not get you thinking, then you do not wish to think.

Every time I see the Japanese ringing the memorial bell at Hiroshima, I regret the loss of civilian lives.

I also remember another city somewhere else that you never think about and for which the memorial is never shown on American TV.

During the Japanese invasions of China, starting about 1937 (which eventually caused the cut off of US oil to Japan and created a cassus Belli for japan) a City called Nanking was occupied, its citizens massacared, and the horrific event that followed was not even kept secret from Japan's citizens.

The US was a net exporter of oil in 1937-1941.

At least our friend Adolf was afraid of telling his own population what was happening, in re "the Final Solution".

I think outlawing the sale of backpacks to civilians, not to mention guns, might have given out a clue to SOMEONE, Hello!!! In fairness there was a considerable anti Nazi underground in Germany who suspected the truth of the Holocaust, but could not themselves believe its extent.

Western Allies knew about something, but, I think, totally underestimated the extent of the Holocaust and similar events which were continuing in Japanese occupied China. There was not much the Allies could do quickly anyway.

I would like to know why Japanese newspapers published (no bs) a "Head Cutting" Race between two Japanese officers in Nanking.

Dead Chinese women, oh, I am sorry, I meant to say MURDERED Chinese women had Branches and twigs stuffed in every imanginable- ah--place,

Japanese Soldiers took snapshots of them and sent them home. I admit their photos did not lack shocking power-at least to us.

Japanese newspapers kept track and published the results of the "head count race".

How well Japanese prewar conditioning worked.

Pardon me if I don't remember the winner of the headcutting Race..

Pardon me if I think of Nanking when I see the Japanese solemnly and self righteously ringing the memorial for those killed by "Little Boy" and "Fat Man".

The author of the Books "The Forgotten Holocaust" and the the "Rape of Nanking" was a Chinese American named Iris Chang. Pictures of the Newspaper headlines mentioned, and much more, are reproduced therein.

If you have heard of Karen Silkwood and not of Iris Chang, perhaps this will help you understand my feelings.

Do you think Ms. Chang was "Karen Silkwooded"?

She died of an apparently self inflicted gunshot wound after the publication of her works.

Im not buying this.

Japan has great power in this country.

They can't even make a hybrid car without the words "world domination" coming up.

Japan has never apologized for Nanking.

This is not intended as a "knock" on the Okinawans who, according to the Book "Tennozan" refused, as Kanbun O Sensei did, to serve in the Japanese Military and , when conscripted, were put into grunt work in japanese construction battalions as they did not seem to be trusted by the Empire which annexed them.

Perhaps the $$ are not the only reason Okinawa has not pressed for the removal of the US presence on the Island despite their name for the Battle of Okinawa, which speaks for itself: The Typhoon of Steel"

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Postby JOHN THURSTON » Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:06 am

i will not post any pictures of the Forgotten Holocaust, But i will send them to any who wish to see them, assuming they are of age and/or I know them.

they are far too graphic for normal postings.

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Sobering post John..

Postby gmattson » Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:50 am

I've been reading Grossman's "On Combat" and he discussed how the Japanese used violence to condition their soldier's to a point where killing was easy and done without the normal abhorrence to killing that is hard-wired within our species.

Not sure if this was strategy on the part of the military or something that evolved with the escalation of the war.
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Postby f.Channell » Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:58 am

What about on American soil.

The Trail of Tears.

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Postby Icebladeraptor9 » Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:30 pm

I learned about this last year in my world studies class, they referred to it as the Rape of Nanking, learning about it and what they did with what I heard were pieces of bamboo, instead of sticks, made me retch. We spent a few weeks on the Holocaust and lightly touched upon this, it is sad that most Americans don't know what happened in Nanking.
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Trails of Tears

Postby JOHN THURSTON » Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:56 pm

Fred: I assume the Trail of tears you referred to was the forced relocation of the Cherokee.

As despicable illegal and treaty breaking as it was, the number of over 1/2 million in just one Chinese City boggles the mind.

I believe Iris Chang was murdered, plain and simple.

It is thought provoking that the Phillipines have pushed harder for the removal of American Bases than the Okinawans.

I don't think they are happy about our continued presence, but playing off one Great Power against another, justifiably, to preserve the Okiniwa's uniqueness, was and maybe still is a natural part of the Survival of Okinawan Culture.

It was, it is said, that the "tang" hand, later changed to "empty hand" and Kobudo (nunchako, Sai, Tonfa) were developed during the period between the Kyushu based "Satsuma" clan of Jjapan's conquest of the Ryukos and the subsequent annexation of Okinawa into the Empire as the Prefecture of Okinawa perhaps gave rise to the art we study.

Fred, I will follow out the link you gave me, thanks.

If you think coincidence and synchronicity ( a Jungian notion) does not exist, consider that the famed war correspondent Ernest "Ernie" Pyle, author of 'Here is Your War" was killed on Ite Jima. I hope I have this correct.

At the time none had heard of ite Jima or Okinawa and the Okinawans were still referred to as "natives".

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Postby cxt » Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:57 pm

The details of the Rape of Nanking--the Japanese Bio-War Unit operating in China--Unit 731 I think.

There are times when I really wish I had never heard of them at all. :(

But such things MUST be remembered.

The Trail of Tears is another such crime that also MUST be remembered.
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Tough Thread

Postby JOHN THURSTON » Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:08 pm

You are right, such things must not be forgotten, and, as it was once put, "The Bloody Great Gorilla" that lives in the closet of every nation must be kept pent up.

Fred: the US Supreme Court ruled against the Forcible relocation of The Cherokee, but "King" Andrew simply ignored the Court.

Rulings of the Judiciary mean nothing if they are not enforced through the Power of the Executive branch.

The Trail of Tears should never be forgotten, make no mistake.

It was set forth for us to believe in the Movie "The Last Emporer" that "Henry" Pu Yi, last of the Manchu Dynasty which had it roots in Manchuria, knew nothing of The systematic massacres of the Chinese people .

i am not buying this one either.

George Sensei, thank you for the Name of the Book.

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Postby Bill Glasheen » Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:48 pm


I read The Rape of Nanking quite a few years ago. The pictures in it are indeed graphic and disturbing. We see the newspaper article in Asahi Shinbun where the two officers were having the head chopping contest (final score 103-102). The Japanese polulation at the time was oblivious to the outside world interpretation of their action in China.

They just thought differently back then... They had no respect for an enemy that surrendered, hence the abuse of American prisoners in The Battaan Death March. (On a personal note, I got the brunt of some of that thinking in a Japanese martial arts program years ago...) They freely ran experiments in chemical and biological warfare on prisoners. They posed for pictures with the tens of thousands of young girls and women they raped. They did bayonette practice on thousands of civilians, lining them up for the kill. They took severed heads and stuck cigarette butts in the mouth, and then took pictures.

George is right in how Grossman covers the psychological implications. Basically they were able to dehumanize their enemies, which allowed them to treat them like common cockroaches. It's worse when you think about it. I once yelled at a fellow grad student who fried a living cockroach in a microwave for grins.

This is an era past. Our military did a good job of completely changing the course of their history for the better.

As for Iris Chang's suicide, well perhaps it's a stretch of the imagination to think she was murdered by Japanese, or to imply it. No doubt the gravity of her work probably weighed heavily on her psyche. I would get burnt out....

Japan does have selective amnesia about the past. They would do well to stop the denial, and stop accusing others of things they did in spades. It's part of the healing process.

This is the duty of historians, John. Never let it be forgotten. At the same time, don't blame innocents of the present for the deeds of their ancestors. That's history. We all grow as individuals and as cultures. We must learn, we must never forget, but we must move on. Just my opinion...

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Postby f.Channell » Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:07 am

One of my early mentors in business was a survivor of the Bataan Death March. He had a deep dislike for the Japanese and anything of Japanese make. A Toyota for example, he would not even sit in.

But the point I was trying to make is that every nation on earth has at one time or another done a crime of inhumanity to another.

Except perhaps the Okinawans and a few others.

Another disgusting example was the British after the battle of Culloden.
After beating Bonnie Prince Charlie's army they went on a killing spree for two days hunting and killing the Scottish, man, woman and child.
Stabbing the wounded scots on the battlefield and burning 32 alive in a barn. Then not feeding their prisoners or allowing them clothing.

An aftermath of battle so disgusting the British regiments still do not claim it among their victories.

The Scots were also seen as lowly natives.

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Thought and Insightfull Replies

Postby JOHN THURSTON » Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:01 pm

Thank You Fred Sensei and Bill Sensei:

For you insight and you replies.

I read also the book the Great Escape. one of two about the US' Ranger's liberation of two POW camps.

One of which was made into a movie, not a Box office hit. I think they called it "The Raid".

I the book the author cites, as a partial cause for the brutalization of POW"s the cultural training, to which GEM refers, which taught Japanese youth that those who surrendered were lower than bugs, that they, as part of the Yamato race and the scion of Gods, were truly the "Master Race".

The author pushed these notions as far as he felt he could, but broke down and said that none of this was any excuse.

An American or Allied prisoner in a German Stalag had about an 85% chance of surviving, those in a Japanese camp, about 20%.

The japanese did not worry about their own prisoners of war, as they did not think therer would be any. To a certain extent, they were correct.

Perhaps Bill Sensei, it is is a bit of a stretch to think Iris Chang was murdered--but it is a bit of a stretch to think Karen Silkwood was murdered as well.

Who among us does not think she was at this point?

Fred Sensei; the Battle of Culloden is billed as the last Great battle fought on British soil. I will research some Regimental Historys on your point.

If you wished to start a thread on Culloden, I would love it.


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WWII Japanese POW Camps

Postby Norm Abrahamson » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:37 pm

A good fictionalized account of life in a japanese POW camp is "King Rat" by James Clavell. Clavell was in a Japanese POW camp during WWII and the book is based in part on his experience.


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Postby mikemurphy » Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:37 pm


I'll have some more info on the above thread regarding Japan and their treatment of POWs, but I did want to mention that the Trail of Tears was not just about the Cherokee, but all five "civilized tribes:"


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Postby JOHN THURSTON » Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:55 pm

Mike Sensei:

Is it not ironic then that Geronimo and his surviving firghters were relocated to Florida.

The Seminoles never surrendered.

Technically that war has never closed. (it is not the only one, but memory fails)

I look forward to your posts.

Norm, I read King Rat and I believe saw the movie. I also read Tai Pan and Shogun. I think these were also Clavells works. I loved them all.

A rembered line from Shogun: "Anjin-san, this island can be a paradise or a Hell" John Rhys Davies' Character.

STRICT class distinction led the ruling Daimyos and those who served them to consider villagers and serfs as subhuman. This was Not much different from fuedal Europe I suppose.

All the Daimyos fought endlessly to be Shogun(s) i think.

I will dig a bit and perhaps flash out the facts surrounding the "Sankin Kotai" (a system of Hostage taking by the emporer. Whether this existed prior to or before the Meiji restoration escapes me.)

Thanks for the reminder, this old brain needs a jog or twelve.

I remember also the speech read to Americans at one of the Bataan related camps.

The most chilling part was: "you have come here only to die". this many refused to do and their countrymen refused to let happen. Because Americans cling to and choose life and avoids death does not make him weak or inferior.

Because some of us have been taught to turn the other cheek, that suicide is the unforgivible sin, does not mean we are weak or that America will suffer evil to prevail.

Suicide missions are forbidden, officially, to the American military.

Obviously my library and stored book boxes need some work.

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Postby mikemurphy » Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:36 am


The entire US government's treatment of the Eastern Indians and Plains Indians speaks for itself. "A Century of Dishonor" or "I Buried My Heart at Wounded Knee" is all someone has to read in order to get and idea of what it was all about.

BTW, we can point fingers at others, but in 1898 we murdered over 40,000 Filipinos putting down their insurrection against US rule after we promised them their independence. Go figure.

As for the "Holocaust" in the Asian theater, one must remember the ancient hatred the Japanese had for the Chinese. They thought very little of the Chinese people as a whole, it certainly relates well with German's hatred toward the Jews. During the occupation of China, not only was there the natural hatred to start with, but the Japanese were told to live off the land.

Furthermore, the sadistic training of the Japanese imperial army assured blind obedience and allowed for Japan to "punish" the Chinese. This climaxes in 1937's Rape of Nanking. For 6 weeks the Japanese had their way with population of Nanking. Indiscrimminate killing, maiming, raping were the actions of the day. But this would occur again in places such as Singapore and the Philippines after their capiculation. Slaughtering wounded soldiers, murdering civilians, killing the sick and those who helped them in the medical field including nurses.

As for the POWs and their treatment, the most infamous was obviously the Bataan Death March. But that was just a small part of their inhuman treatment of all prisoners. The treatment of the British, Dutch, Australian, and Indian during the war is well documented in agood book to read by Brian MacArthur, "Surviving the Sword: Prisoners of the Japanese in the Far East, 1942 - 1945." This book details just how the Japanese treated POWs and put to bed the myths of Hollywood, such as the Bridge Over the River Kwai. Some of the tales made me want to throw up, but the stories of how they survived is amazing. A must read.

Japan also organized a secret faction called Unit 731, which conducted medical, biological, and chemical experiments on Chinese citizens and Allied POWs, including Americans. Although the count will never be known as to how many people the Japanese brutalized with these experiments, it is guessed to be in the thousands. I would suggest a book by Sheldon Harris called "Factories of Death" for more detailed descriptions. He details the experiments using Typhus, Anthrax, the Plague, among other things on the Chinese people by poisoning wells, using bombs laden with infectious material, or simple exposure in labs.

Although the numbers will never be known here as well, a concervative number would be between 10,000 - 13,000. The worst atrocity, however, occured after the war was over and General Ishii (head of Unit 731) and the scientists and soldiers who worked in this unit were allowed to return home unhindered. No member of Unit 731 was ever prosecuted after the war.

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