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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:24 pm 
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Hello:

Well, you already know this forum jumps centuries faster than a grasshopper covers an inch.

At the end of WWII the US had only 1 operationable Jet Fighter, the ugly, slow and overrated Bell 'Airacomet'.

The performance of this Aircraft was so dissapointing that Bell was accused of falsifying test data to make the aircraft appear better than it was.
I am shootiong from the Hip here, but i will post data on this disaster of a fighter when I find my data on it.

Basically, the US was so hungry for an operational jet fighter that the Airacomet was built, just not in great numbers as its true performance (or lack thereof) became glaringly apparent.

The Next Us Jet fighter, which first saw service in the Korea War, was the handsome Lockeed F80 "Shooting Star". It proved No match for the Mig 15s which began appearining over and south of the Yalu in 1950. This area of combat over the Yalu was soon dubbed "Mig Alley".

The US, at the time, was actually engaged in 'strategic bombing' of Pyonyang by B-29s and B-50s (an upgraded B-29) at this time.

Despite the fact that the Superfortresses were the best Bomber of WWII and featured such addvances as remote controlled guns, pressurized cabins, good hi and low altitude performance, the B-29s proved easy picking for the Migs, and the Superfortresses were effectively barred from daylight raids for the remaider of the war..

The best aspects of the Mig 15, in terms of capability, were its heavy gun armament of 1 37mm cannon and 2 23mm cannon, high rate of climb, excellent pilot visibility and good maneurverability.

German pilots possessing similar armaments in the FW 190 and Me 109 reckoned that it took 10-15 hits from a 20mm cannon to down a B-17, the B-29's Boeing predeccessor. The FW's amd Mes also carried 7.92 mm weapons, but the B-17s could absorb what must have seemedan endless (to the German pilots) number of hits from these smaller waepons.

With the introduction of this 37mm to a modular 'gun pack' of the Mig 15, it made a suberb interceptor as only 1 or 2 hits from the 37mm would probably down any UN aircraft.

What didn't help the B-29 pilots, however, was the fact that the Soviets had been presented with several B-29's interned in the Soviet Union. There were B-29 bases in China as early as 1944.

Tthe Soviets interned several that had to land in Soviet territory after being crippled over Japan.

Not only was the B-29 the World's only nuclear delivery system iin 1945, but it was possibly the best piston engined bomber ever built. Late in the war B-32 Convair Bombers came into brief service as this companies competition to the B-29 and the successor, in itself, to the famous B-24 Liberator. (Convair=CONsolidated Vultee AIRcraft). This saw very limited service.

The Soviets were thus able to produce a B-29 clone in the Tu-4, and they were made very familiar with the B-29s strength and weaknesses.

This may have led to the incorporation of cannon in the Migs weapons package.

The same gun package that made the Mig 15 a formidable interceptor, ( ie: the mixed 37 and 23mm guns) made it a less effective Air Superiority fighter as the different guns had quite different trajectories, lessening the efectiveness of the Mig as an air superiority gun platform.

I Believe the Mig Pilots had the option of firing the different calibers together or separately.

The North American F-86 Sabres armed with 6 nose mounted .50 Cal Machine Guns proved a more stable gun platform with a higher rate of fire with 6 weapons having the same ballistic path actually proved a more effective gun platform.

The points of impact of the Sabres guns could be adjusted to fit a particular pilots idea of the Ideal "pattern of shot" as one might say in shotgunners terminology, and fighting style.

If one wanted a tight pattern, it could be done. If one preferred, as a matter of preferernce, a wider pattern, it could be arranged.

Many if not most of the US pilots making the trek to "Mig Alley" were veterans Of WWII.

Most WWII US fighters were armed with the same weapons (Browning .50cal BMG) and thus US pilots were familiar with the weapons. This gave US pilot two advantages over the average Mig Pilot.

One hit from a .50 cal might not bring down a Mig, but, on the other hand, rarely was one single hit a common phenomenon and a hit from a 750 grain slug travelling at of 2700 feet per second was sure to get a Mig pilot's attention .


In a phenomena to be mirrored in the performance of untried and poorly trained Iraqi Fighters, new Chinese pilots of the Mig appear to have little idea of how to manuever properly in a dogfight, and often these pilots flew straight and level even when under fire.

The F-86s racked up the highest kill ratio in history, of between 8-1 and 12 to 1 Mig versus Sabre.

The Russian instructors, who were often obliged by Stalin to fly combat missions into Mig Alley, were much better.

However the knowledge that they would be killed by their wingmen if they bailed out could hardly have encouraged the Russian pilots to press matters to their max.

No Russian Pilot was ever actually captured, but eyewitness testimony does tell of Pilots bailing out being shot in the air or on the ground and in the sea speaks volumes.

Also constant Russian language radio traffic was heard and intercepted.

Of course, those that made it back to Chinese airspace may not have been killed, I just don't know.

More on this same subject later.

John

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:48 pm 
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John,

Have you seen that show "Dogfights"?

I think it's on the history Channel. Great show.

F.

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 Post subject: Hi
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:23 pm 
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Hi Fred:

I monitor the military channel and the History and National Geographic channels as well and Discovery science.

I have seen Gun Camera footage from P-47s, P-51s, F-B6s, F-4Us and others on the Military Channels.

Dogfights is a good set of episodes..

People do forget that the proper name for the A-10 Warthogs is the "Thunderbolt II" in honor of its WWII predecessor the P-47.

I am just going to post pictures of various fighter when I can.

The Film editing sometimes is very quirky ie:

1. continually showing the Baker and Able Atomic Tests as conventional explosions or as the attack on Nagasaki or Hiroshima.

2. Showing 'black' Marines on Iwo. I have no objections to this except that ther were no black Marines allowed in WWII except, perhaps, for interpreters. A lingering show of racism and pre integretion in the Services problem.

3. Showing SBD's dropping the first Bombs in episodes on Pearl Harbor. My investigation of Japanese Aircraft in the Pearl harbor Attacks. Obvious members of the strike force include the Mitsubiishi. 01 (Zero-sen) "Zeke" and the Aichi "Val". There was a wave of standard straight and level bombers which had little effect.

Some clips are interesting in strange ways such as the showing of Wermacht Troopers carrying PPSH's and Tokarevs, clearly making a connection to the Eastern Front. The Germans did not field a Semi auto rifle of their making until 1943. showing of the Tokarevs may be anachronistic on occassion, but I do not know exactly when this shoulder arm was introduced into Soviet Service.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:35 pm 
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The Soviets had 3 B-29s that had to divert to Siberia and they flew one to somewhere near Moscow nd had it taken apart for reverse engineering. THe other two were used to train Soviet pilots in flying these very tricky aircraft. The crews were allowed to "escape" to Tehran via Tashkent.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:46 pm 
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Oh, and the MiG-15 was so successfull because it had a Soviet-built version of the Rolls-Royce Nene turbojet engine that they called the Klimov RD-45 and the Klimov VK-1. The US licensed it as the Pratt & Whitney J42, used most notably in the Grumman F9F Panther. The British Labor Government had given the Soviets 25 of the Nene engines as a good-will gesture and the Soviets reverse-engineered the thing just as they had done with the interned B-29s.

BTW, one of the problems witht heMiG-15 was that it was not very good at turning in a dogfight so that the Sabers could easily take it even though it could out-climb them.

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 Post subject: Overshoot
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:06 pm 
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The Airbrakes on a Sabre were initially installed as a protection against the feared control compression which could freeze the controls of many earlier aircraft as they neared mach one.

This had the effect of turning a good dogfighter into a better one as when the brake were popped open and a hard bank executed, a Sabre could cause a Mig on Six to over shoot and often put the Sabre in a favorable position for a shot.

Combined with superior ballistic gun platform results, the experince and tactics of US pillot made it tough on Mig Pilots.

Right Hugh, the Rolls Royce Nene was sold as noted to the USSR in a minute of British madness.

Of course the Soviets then proceeded to produced thousands without "license", perhaps taking a line from "Das Kapital" or Lenin's memoirs wherein it was prophesied that "our enemies---'the capitalist'---will sell us the weapons of their own defeat".

Perhaps Hugh will know the source.

I don't beleive the Soviets had an engine anywhee near as good as the Nene at the time, although Tumansky and others certain proved there abilities to design Turbojets at later times in the cold war.

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 Post subject: Re: Overshoot
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:08 pm 
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JOHN THURSTON wrote:
<Portions deleted>
Right Hugh, the Rolls Royce Nene was sold as noted to the USSR in a minute of British madness.

Of course the Soviets then proceeded to produced thousands without "license", perhaps taking a line from "Das Kapital" or Lenin's memoirs wherein it was prophesied that "our enemies---'the capitalist'---will sell us the weapons of their own defeat".

Perhaps Hugh will know the source.

I don't beleive the Soviets had an engine anywhee near as good as the Nene at the time, although Tumansky and others certain proved there abilities to design Turbojets at later times in the cold war.

I believe that the quote is from Lenin, but I may well be wrong. It went something like this; "The capitalists will sell us the rope with which to hang them." But I don't think that it applies tot he Brits GIVING the Soviets five Rolls-Royce Nene jet engines. The Atlee government did this as a gesture of friendship!

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 Post subject: Quite Right Hugh
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:45 pm 
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Yes Hugh:

My recollection is that the Nene was a silly gift, but the quote from Lenin still sort of seems appro pos.

It is my recollection that nothing in the Ussr was the Nene's match and it seems to me, as in many cases in Russian Aircraft design, the aircraft was often as not built revolving around the available power plants.

this is, perhaps, evidenced in the apparent Russian tendency to build big.

Flying in the face of that is the graceful Turbprop Tu-95 and TU 142 "Bear A-J". Tom Clancy said of this aircraft, thru a character In "Red Storm Rising" . "They sure do build them Pretty".

Of interesting not is the vary sane and pratical habit of the Bear's Rear Gunners of "locking" the rear 20mm in the "UP and Out " Position when picked up and tailed by US interceptors.

This is a bit far afield from KW era aircraft to be sure.

Similarly to the US B-52, this aircraft is the nadir of design needs for the Soviets/Russians in the maritime surveillance, anti shipping and strategic bomber needs.

Of course the most beautiful, aestheticalll, strategic bomber IMHO to fly whas the Handley Page Victor.
It was beautiful and only surpassed in the aesthics department by the US B-1.

Of course what is beautiful to one, is not necessary attractive to another. the Victor was the last of the 3 UK "V" Bombers (one being the Avro Vulcan which made an abortive conventional Bombing sortie in the Falklands War.

I am afraid the third aircraft of the triad of UK v Bombers is not popping up in my memory banks.

to go back to the KW and derivative Aircraft, the Mig 15 evolved into the Cold War and Vietnam War Mig 17, which bedeviled US Thud formations thoughout the War.

The Mig 17, of course, was a much improved Mig 15 and was a daunting foe even to the faster and, in some senses, more capable F-4.

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