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 Post subject: Indian weapons
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:34 am 
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Location: Valhalla
I saw this club at the Fruitlands Museum in Mass.
Attributed to being from the King Phillips War Era (1670's) but not proven.
Beautiful weapon.

Image

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:40 am 
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Location: Valhalla
Another site you may want to visit for those in the area is the Weymouth Museum in Tufts library (Massahusetts).
They have a 300+ year old dug out indian canoe that they pulled out of a local pond. Only open Monday nights, so I'm busy teaching unfortunately.

Other artifacts as well.

F.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:49 am 
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Here's some nice repros for sale.

http://www.red-eagle.net/Lance/Lances.htm

F.

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 Post subject: Atlatl
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:09 pm 
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Hi Fred:

If you would contine your work on Indian (any post or pre Columian) weapons,

It would be ok with me. Not exactly my strong point.

I have found, in the past, that just putting forth one's knowledge, such as you display in this area, seems to bring more readers (hits) than just posting links.

Also, making the ocaasional faux paus does not seem to drive readers away.

An interesting weapon of the 16th century Central American Aztec Empire was the "obsidian edged" club.

Now I know there is a specific name for this weapon, but i annot recall it, and, of course, the volcanic glass of its edge was a no brainer for the non Iron Age participating Precolumbian Native Americans. (now that's a PC mouthfull).

Of course it was not effective against steel Armor.

The edges were sharper and harder than steel but rather brittle.

For the one of the best but aged novel (I think or opine) on this era was Shellabarger's "Captain from Castile(also a movie as was "Prince of Foxes" about Machiavellian Italy co-starring Orson Welles as Cesare Borgia if I recall correctly. Welles also co starred as "Bayan of the Hundred eyes" in the Movie "The Black Rose" about a Marco Polo type Englishman from the novel of the same name (i think by Costain, my memory may be faulty here).

Oldied but goodies to be sure.

Sensei Bill requested (well sorta) a thread on the Atlatl (the throwing stick) of a similar type as the earlier Fulsom and Clovis point weapons used to the North that made life difficult, perhaps, back as far as the times of the Mammoth.

Again, not my strong point.

The 'type' of draw used by the NE N. Americans is also a question.

Presently we in the Us either us a three fingered draw or, as I grew up with, a thumb and fore finger pull. The latter not a good idea for Bows over 30lbs Draw.

The latest mutation of the is the trigger type release of the Compound bow, which necessitates a permanent loop attached to the drawstring at the point of draw.

(Of course, the English Yeoman's bow was normally (anecdotally thus far) of Hew.)(oops---Yew)(sorry HUgh)

Tied with the Compound bow it is a very much more deadly weapon than the simple single reflex bows I originally learned on ( in another lifetime.)

The 14th and 15th century draw of the English yeoman was, perhaps, 2 fingered.

That was ok if you didn't mind losing the skin off your fingers from time to time.

I doubt the leather drawing gloves were used by the Native Americans, but I am not sure.

Bon Chance!!

j

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Last edited by JOHN THURSTON on Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:04 pm 
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The atl-atl is a commonly found item in stone age sites throughout the world. I have seen examples from the Eskimo cultures that were made from animal jawbones as wood was just not available or too valuable for other purposes. I have seen them from Nothern Europe, from Africa, from pre-pharoanic Egypt, from the Near East, and, of course, from the Americas. A friend who re-enacts ancient Celts makes their weapons and has made an atl-atl, I forget the Celtic name for it, and I have watched him put a javelin clear through a repro Roman scutum of three plys of wood layed up at cross angles to one another at about 100 yards. Those things are not toys.

The Aztec, and other, machuital was the obsidian edged war club or sword that so horrified the Spanish. But obsidian is essentially glass and shatters easily. It did not do well against armor.

The Native Americans never seem to have developed the compound bow, which I find odd. They certainly developed the use of the bow to a very high degree, as high as the Mongols or any other steppe archer tribes of Asia, but they never seemed to make the step to the compund bow, staying with the self bow made of a single stave of wood.

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 Post subject: Good stuff
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:32 pm 
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Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Hi:

I did place a shanked javelin undersized but heavy pilum type) through about 5 plys of wood at about 15 yards.

A question, I am assumsuming by" compouind bow" you are referring to the composite double reflex type bow as I am somewhat used to attachning the "compound' label to the pulley and guy wire type now in use.

The "muzzle velocity' of the compound bow now sold is a bit scary and requires litle adjustment for elevation out to---ummm---say at least 30 yards.

A broadhead will not pierce as much wood or leather as a "pilum" or properly pointed arrow.

I quess that is why the are so many arrowhead types.

The throwing stick never seemed to survive the invention of the bow, Except in preColumbian Empires to our south, of course.

Ease of use?

J

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:21 pm 
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(Smacks head) Yes, I meant the composite bow. I am not an archer.

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 Post subject: Hi Hugh
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:06 pm 
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Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Not to worry.

I was reading a thoroughy enjoyable novel named "Centurion" a novel of the Army of Rome.

I appears to take place after the Varian Disaster but before Germanicus retrieved at least two of the three lost standards.

The Legion Named was the XXVth, and I can not find a reference to this legion although around this time there would have been at least 28 (30-2 lost in Trans Rhenus Germany.

This is sort of like seeing "Northwest Passage" and noting that all the rifles used to stage the final destruction of the Abenakis at St. Francis were 1873 Springfields. Howvever, the director tried very hard not to show the weapons to avoid this very criticism.
More, of course, later.

J

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:02 pm 
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I believe that the three legions lost in the Varian Disaster in 9 CE were XVII, XVIII, & XIX, sometimes referred to as the XVIIII. At the death of Augustus in 14 CE, there were 8 legions stationed along the Rhine in Upper and Lower Germany. In Upper Germany, there were four legions: II Augusta at Strasbourg, XIII Gemina at Windisch, and, in a double fortress at Mainz, XIV and XVI. In Lower Germany, there were four legions: I Germanica and XX Valeria at Xanten, V Alaudae and XXI at Cologne.

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