Uechi-Ryu.com

Discussion Area
It is currently Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:59 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: The 299!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2438
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
The 299??? The 299?

What's up with that John, surely you are in error.

No I am not in error, and I hope to use this thread into another way of viewing western Martial History and Martial Arts.

Generally, very generally, western martial arts (I repeat myself from another thread) seems to have have become inextricably intertwined with training received in connection with providing for the Common Defense.

Indeed, after Pancho Villa's raid into Texas (main points and detailing of that subject elsewhere) the old system of Militia and Small Standing Army seems to have begun to fade.

At Brownville, Militia members where unable to cope with the surprise and speed of the rebel's attack, so the system was overhauled.

In the case of the City State of Sparta, all men were required to begin training in the AGOGE starting at about age twelve.

The Agoge might best be described as the means by which Sparta attained a sometimes overwhelming Military machine.

Why was the machine any different than the Phalaxes fielded by other City States?

Generally, most other City state's Hoplite armies (generally) were comprised primarily of the Militia Hoplite.

Why?

One can teach a weekend warrior how to line up and some basic orders and the principles of Phalanx warfare relatively easily.

The Dory (8' long spear-double ended)was a 'load' but it was, in a way, a standoff weapon. Well, ok, I will settle for an "Arms Length" weapon.

Perhaps if one thought of the Dory as a sword with and EXTREMELY long haft.

To some degree the Dory was used with a mind to employing "cut and thrust' tactics at arms length.

The 'saw' about why it was considered more disgraceful for the Hoplite to return to Sparta without his shield that to return without any and all his other equipment remains true--it was felt that the shield was to protect the men at your side and assist in unit formation preservation.

So lose your other weapons will he nill he, but we don't want to hear about your failure to protect your comrades.

In a way, I might point to this though and way of thinking as a sort of a"birthplace" the birthplace of countless western military machines to follow that sought, as still must be sought, to mold the inidividual into a communal military mindset.

Break down individuality, enhance unit thiinkind and rebuild the man into a Hoplite .

Sound familiar.

The Samurai may point to an instance where the individuality of the Samurai had to be dispensed with.

The greatest individual warriors, a class undone by Japan's need to have a 'modern' military machine.

I oversimplify, and, yes, this is a though that runs at the base of a lot of threadmaking.

In Sparta, this process was very intense.

At 12, healthy boys were ushered off into the agoge, to live in barracks starting at age 12 and continung until aga 19 of twenty.

Now, I will take a leap of faith here and say that if most of us had seven years of 'basic' and even the slightest glimmering of weapon or military talent, we would have come out of the Agoge in fairly fearsome guise.

It just was not a guise.

More to follow.


JT

_________________
"All Enlightenment Gratefully Accepted"


Last edited by JOHN THURSTON on Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 595
Location: Virginia
John, while there is no question that Sparta was the best at phalanx warfare, at least until Epaminondas of Thebes whipped them, but they paid a price for that. The men and women of Sparta were just as much slaves to the state as were their helots and no other Greek polity was willing to so enslave its citizenry. The Agoge was a very unpleasant place by modern standards and even by the contemporary standards of the other Greeks. May I suggest that you obtain Persian Fire: The First World Empire and the Battle for the West by Tom Holland which lays out the backgrounds of the three major participants in the Graeco-Persian Wars, Persia, Sparta, and Athens, and shows how they came into the conflict. Amazon has it for $10.85. You also would enjoy Rubicon: The Last Years of the Roman Republic by Tom Holland which is also for sale at Amazon for $10.20.

_________________
Trying to Walk in the Light, Hugh
1 John 1:5


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Thebes
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2438
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Hi Hugh:

Much thanks to you for mentioning this pivotal battle.

Epaminondes whipped the Spartans at Leuctra.

NO QUESTION!!!

Very pivotal Battle. Very.

Leuctra showed that a Military GEnius i (Epaminondes) could beat the Agoge Trained Phalanx by use of a new battle formation.

If I recal correctly the Spartans deployed in their ages credited three main Phalangial Division.

Their basic tactic was time honored, engage the enemy, secure your flank, pin him and PUSH until something gives.

Epaminondes, however, loaded the dice with his DEEP Phalangial battle order.

I am flyimg from memory, but I beleive the overloaded Oversized Phalanx was perhaps 4 to 6 times deeper tham the Traditional Spartan Phalanx.

This formation later proved to be vurnerable to The Legions in a far distant battle in which the Legions proved that their flexible Manipular Legion Formation provided tactical flexibility and allowed the Legion to flank the Theban/Alexandrian Phalanx.

Philp Of Macedon was not a stupid man. Nor was his son Alexander.

(You''ll have to pardon me but I am on a little role and have not taken the time to research the exact formations and time of battle)

Phillip veritably adopted Epaminondes tactic of the deep fixing Phalanx---but he improved on it.

Tyrpically Phillip would deploy:

On his far right flank from right to left=

1. Peltasts-'rock throwers carrying a crescent shaped shield and lighlty amored, this type of unit could and did literally pick up anyhting handy to "Pelt" the enemy disorganizing his left flank.

2. Perhaps Light Cavalry or Hypapists, the latter a 6' amed medium infantry also capable of attacking at the pivotal fixed point.

3. The Heavy Amored Cavalryy of the "Companions" intended to smite the joint of the enemy's right flank when it was harrased by the Peltasts and fixed in plae by the huge Epamoninondes type overload 16 deep at a minimum. Rhe Companiof were armed witht the Lancea type "Xyston" a double ended spear.

Phillip also to oayed succesafully here. The 16" Sarissa replaced the 8 foot Dory. From the Pictures the Shields of this Phalanx were more or less permanently attachet to the fighters' left arm, allowing the Macedonian Phalangite to use the powerful double handed thust when advancing.

I beleive this type of double handed thrusting is mirrored in the Kobudo Bo Kata "Tokumne No Kun".

Very powerfull killing blow available despite the blunt ends of the Kobudo Bo.

Now imagine if this Bo had two bronze ends!!!

From the Spartans (according to Julian) came the "Phyrric Beat" Perhaps, according to Julian=Boom, Boom Boom---Pause/step=Boom, boom boom, pause/step accomanied by the Macedonian battle "paaen".

This modified phalanx fixed the enemy's left flank inexorably. Allegedly the Greeks used the Paean from the time of Marathon thru the end of Greek Phalangial Supremecy.

The Persians allefedly advanced in silence at both Marathon and the Gates of Fire. (allowiung for considerable noise I guess from the almost a rabble levies??)


4. The two or three "normal" Phalanxes, normally commanded by Parmenion in Persia. Here Greek Phalngites from the 'Allied" States could be used.

5. More Peltasts and/or Hypapists.


The enemy is fixed and flanked then crushed btween the Companions and the Macedonian Phalanx.

Now Skipping back to the 300,

Aristemos at Themopylae.

Arsitemos was a true Spartan warrior raised in the ways of the Agoge since age twelve, traiined, as noted , and kept in separate barracks with other boys of his age.

But at Thermoplylae, Arisdemos and anothed Phalangite were stricken with an eye infection.

Leonidas knew that Aristodemos could literally, not see a damned thing, and he ordered Aristedemos and onme other Spartan to "stand down".


In typically and wonderfully Spartan ways, Aristedemos' companion, also stricken blind left Aristedemos and died in the Battle.

Aristedemos stood down as ordered. However when he tried to return to Laconia, he was shunned by all except his immediate famiily.

Such was the disgrace, despite the devil's choice, of heeding Leonda's Order, or die with the others, that Aristedemos in "Uriah the Hittite" fashion, "thrust himself forward into the forefront of the Battle"
of Platea , Spartans vs. Persians again, and was killed.

The story of hjis shunning because of followng a lawful order of one of the two Kings and war leader of the Apsrtans, entitled to only 300 men at his command while Sparta and the other Greek City States dithered about how to meet the Persian Threat.

I recall, I think, that Athens itself was temporaily overun by the Persians in the interim beteen Thermopyla and Platea.

The story is typically and heroically Spartan.

I can't evn begn to fill in all the details just now.

I am, Hugh, a bit humbled by this thread.

I certainly do recall Epamindondes victory at Leuctra. I WILL post on this pivotal battle.

Suffice it to say that, primarily. Phillip and Alexander adapted Epaminondes' "Right Hook" with the 1 or more deep Phalanx.

Phillip is the partially understated devoper of the Crushiingly effective Macedonian Phalanx.

Alexander wielded the Army Phillip had forged.

Alexander's role in crushing the Theban "Sacred Band
at Charonea will throw more light on the devasting Macedonian tactic which were, in part, an adaptation of Epaminondes' tactics at Leuctra.

I hope I can get to Amazon for the recommended reading. Truly, thank you again my friend.

_________________
"All Enlightenment Gratefully Accepted"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Thebes
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 595
Location: Virginia
JOHN THURSTON wrote:
Hi Hugh:

Much thanks to you for mentioning this pivotal battle.

Epaminondes whipped the Spartans at Leuctra.

NO QUESTION!!!

Very pivotal Battle. Very.

Leuctra showed that a Military GEnius i (Epaminondes) could beat the Agoge Trained Phalanx by use of a new battle formation.

If I recal correctly the Spartans deployed in their ages credited three main Phalangial Division.

Their basic tactic was time honored, engage the enemy, secure your flank, pin him and PUSH until something gives.

Epaminondes, however, loaded the dice with his DEEP Phalangial battle order.

I am flyimg from memory, but I beleive the overloaded Oversized Phalanx was perhaps 4 to 6 times deeper tham the Traditional Spartan Phalanx.

This formation later proved to be vurnerable to The Legions in a far distant battle in which the Legions proved that their flexible Manipular Legion Formation provided tactical flexibility and allowed the Legion to flank the Theban/Alexandrian Phalanx.

The reason that the Roman legions cut it to pieces had as much to do with the decay that had set in amongst the Successors as it had to do with their mobility. Most authors on Roman AND Greek tactics such as Peter Connolly and Adrian Goldsworthy agree that the Macedonian phalanx under an Alexander or Philip would not have been so rigid that they could be taken in the flank and/or rear as the Romans had done to them and not be able to respond. After all, raising your sarissa and turning part of a phalanx to the right or left or even completely around is not all that hard if the men can hear and obey.

Quote:
Philp Of Macedon was not a stupid man. Nor was his son Alexander.

(You''ll have to pardon me but I am on a little role and have not taken the time to research the exact formations and time of battle)

Phillip veritably adopted Epaminondes tactic of the deep fixing Phalanx---but he improved on it.

Tyrpically Phillip would deploy:

On his far right flank from right to left=

1. Peltasts-'rock throwers carrying a crescent shaped shield and lighlty amored, this type of unit could and did literally pick up anyhting handy to "Pelt" the enemy disorganizing his left flank.

2. Perhaps Light Cavalry or Hypapists, the latter a 6' amed medium infantry also capable of attacking at the pivotal fixed point.

3. The Heavy Amored Cavalryy of the "Companions" intended to smite the joint of the enemy's right flank when it was harrased by the Peltasts and fixed in plae by the huge Epamoninondes type overload 16 deep at a minimum. Rhe Companiof were armed witht the Lancea type "Xyston" a double ended spear.

Phillip also to oayed succesafully here. The 16" Sarissa replaced the 8 foot Dory. From the Pictures the Shields of this Phalanx were more or less permanently attachet to the fighters' left arm, allowing the Macedonian Phalangite to use the powerful double handed thust when advancing.

I beleive this type of double handed thrusting is mirrored in the Kobudo Bo Kata "Tokumne No Kun".

Very powerfull killing blow available despite the blunt ends of the Kobudo Bo.

Now imagine if this Bo had two bronze ends!!!

I believe that the sarissas had iron points and butt stakes.

Quote:
From the Spartans (according to Julian) came the "Phyrric Beat" Perhaps, according to Julian=Boom, Boom Boom---Pause/step=Boom, boom boom, pause/step accomanied by the Macedonian battle "paaen".

This modified phalanx fixed the enemy's left flank inexorably. Allegedly the Greeks used the Paean from the time of Marathon thru the end of Greek Phalangial Supremecy.

The Persians allefedly advanced in silence at both Marathon and the Gates of Fire. (allowiung for considerable noise I guess from the almost a rabble levies??)


4. The two or three "normal" Phalanxes, normally commanded by Parmenion in Persia. Here Greek Phalngites from the 'Allied" States could be used.

5. More Peltasts and/or Hypapists.


The enemy is fixed and flanked then crushed btween the Companions and the Macedonian Phalanx.

Now Skipping back to the 300,

Aristemos at Themopylae.

Arsitemos was a true Spartan warrior raised in the ways of the Agoge since age twelve, traiined, as noted , and kept in separate barracks with other boys of his age.

Only up to a certain point. The seven to twelve year olds were kept segregated into their own groups but after that, they were sent into the larger barracks and taken individually under the wings of older soldiers for training and, uhmm, other things.

Quote:
But at Thermoplylae, Arisdemos and anothed Phalangite were stricken with an eye infection.

Leonidas knew that Aristodemos could literally, not see a damned thing, and he ordered Aristedemos and onme other Spartan to "stand down".

In typically and wonderfully Spartan ways, Aristedemos' companion, also stricken blind left Aristedemos and died in the Battle.

Aristedemos stood down as ordered. However when he tried to return to Laconia, he was shunned by all except his immediate famiily.

Such was the disgrace, despite the devil's choice, of heeding Leonda's Order, or die with the others, that Aristedemos in "Uriah the Hittite" fashion, "thrust himself forward into the forefront of the Battle"
of Platea , Spartans vs. Persians again, and was killed.

The story of hjis shunning because of followng a lawful order of one of the two Kings and war leader of the Apsrtans, entitled to only 300 men at his command while Sparta and the other Greek City States dithered about how to meet the Persian Threat.

This is not true. The other states were massing at the Isthmus of Corinth to protect the Peloppenesus, particularly Sparta as was part of the deal that sent Leonidas and his guard to Thermopylae, and the Athenians, less the idiots who stayed to defend Athens, were massing the Greek navies in the Salamis Channel to keep the Greeks from being outflanked by the Persian Navy. As we know, that is where the second of the crucial battles of the 2nd Persian War was fought.

Quote:
I recall, I think, that Athens itself was temporaily overun by the Persians in the interim beteen Thermopyla and Platea.

Athens was overrun between Thermopylae and Salamis. After Salamis, Xerxes, a large part of his army, and what was left of his navy retreated back into Asia and left the the rest of the army under Mardonius to fight on unsupported. They retreated up into the Attic Plain, but not before several efforts to turn Athens to their side. Athens and others made many efforts to bring Sparta back into the war, but Sparta ducked it, claiming religious festivals, a favorite tactic of their's. When the Persians finally left Athens, they razed it to the ground much as Rome later razed Carthage. Sparta FINALLY sent their entire army out and joined the rest of the Greeks at Plataea. And even then, the historians report that the Athenians had to insult the Spartans into finally fighting the battle. It was, as history records, a massacre by the Greeks.

Quote:
The story is typically and heroically Spartan.

I can't evn begn to fill in all the details just now.

I am, Hugh, a bit humbled by this thread.

Don't be. The image of Sparta has been much built up by romantics who ignore the truth. Read Tom Holland's Persian Fire and you might see things a bit differently. I know that I did. Of course, i had long ago stopped worshiping Sparta's memory. For me, the city-state of Greece to honor is Athens, warts and all. Themistocles is THE hero of the 2nd Persian War IMO. Leonidas, while certainly a hero who gave Athens time to evacuate and to organize the Greek navies, was a martyr hero while Themistocles was the one who organized, led, and made possible the Persian defeat at Salamis.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themistocles

Quote:
I certainly do recall Epamindondes victory at Leuctra. I WILL post on this pivotal battle.

Suffice it to say that, primarily. Phillip and Alexander adapted Epaminondes' "Right Hook" with the 1 or more deep Phalanx.

Phillip is the partially understated devoper of the Crushiingly effective Macedonian Phalanx.

Alexander wielded the Army Phillip had forged.

Alexander's role in crushing the Theban "Sacred Band
at Charonea will throw more light on the devasting Macedonian tactic which were, in part, an adaptation of Epaminondes' tactics at Leuctra.

I hope I can get to Amazon for the recommended reading. Truly, thank you again my friend.

_________________
Trying to Walk in the Light, Hugh
1 John 1:5


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2438
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
HI Hugh:

I believe your are correct on thses mattters-----was not my post a lot of fun.

I get to writing fast and based only on the knowledge in my head.

Salamis deserves its own thread, but surely, as you say, Salamis wass pivotal in this Persian War.

I dispute that the Butt Spike and Point of the "Dory" was iron at Thermoplylae.

However, I suppose at some point, the Greeks would turn to Iron.

Am I then to feel you did not like the Post??

I did my very best.

Athens, as you say, lies closer to the Heart Of The Greeks than does Sparta.

Reading about the debacle at Syracuse ----Athens learned the limitation of her power.

I think that you are right. No Platea? I alwys thought that the actions were intertwined in reality.

I suppose the importance of Thermoplyae and Platea was to take the heart from the Persian ground forces.

I don't recall much about Salamis, other than seeing a picture of the Persian Monarch sitting on a chair overlooking the fray around the island of Salamis. The gesture was obviously meant to give the message that he expected his fleet to win.

J

J

_________________
"All Enlightenment Gratefully Accepted"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 595
Location: Virginia
Athens came on too strong after the defeat of Persia but it was more than Syracuse and even the Spartan invasion of Attica that ended her supremacy, it was also an epidemic that swept the besieged city and killed about half of its surviving men.

Then Sparta started to ride too high and the other city-states eventually joined with Thebes to take it down and you will note that, while Athens remains as Greece's most important city today, Sparta is nothing but ruins. Thebes is a different matter as it rose up against Alexander and Alexander destroyed it, refusing to allow it to be rebuilt. You will note, however, that it was the constant bickering and backbiting among the Greeks that allowed first the Macedonians and then the Romans to conquer them. The only time that they united, it was to beat back the invasion of the world empire.

_________________
Trying to Walk in the Light, Hugh
1 John 1:5


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Hmmmmmm
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 5:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2438
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Hugh:

I feel sometimes that you do not feel I know enough----this is not the case.

I feel that you evoke a quick response by me when you (or others, I must admit) pounce omn the thread an hilight its errors--rather htan, for example, just filling in the details that were not covered.

Ok, the Greeks dithered at Platea. Ok NOT the Greeks et al, Pausanias the SPARTAN commander refused to attack until the "auspices" were correct.

Three times he took the auspices, and was on 'a fourth chicken' when the much maligned Aristedemos attacked on his own with whoever would follow him.

Pausanias then decided that the auspices were now good and supported the attack.

Perhaps he was waiting for Aristedemos to put his head in the noose. I doubt it, but it is possible,

You See, what I try to do is finish the thread of thought on one battle or incident, raise some points and hope for you to "flesh things out a bit, not to be critical and point out matters not mentioned that would be covered in due course.

You believe Salamis to be more critical----I don;t----I jumped into Epamanondes before i Wished to and before i was ready.

The very idea of me not knowing about Leuctra!!!!

I you wish to outpace me in these matters, just begin your thread on Salamis and Syracuse when the time is right. Unfortunately the time is not right to discuss it or the pelopenessian .

But if you want tobuild on what is written in those directions--Please do so.

We have talked 000000 about the tactics at Platea or Salamis---so the raising the spectre of later battles is premature---but launch on a complete thread about the battles you anachronistaically raised around the Platea thread when you wish,please don't use battles outsided the main thread as criticism.

I am a plodder. I like to research on matter at a time.

Keep up the good work.

_________________
"All Enlightenment Gratefully Accepted"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 595
Location: Virginia
John, I apologize if you think that I am trying to "put you down." That is most definitely not the case. While you call yourself a "plodder," you make constant references to this or that in your posts and these references cause my ADD to kick in. My mind tends to jump from here to there and back again and it always has. While this has created some problems, it also has occasionally led me to some fairly interesting connections, sort of like that great TV series with James Burke, "Connections," that showed how the most unrelated things are really intimately related. My mind works rather in that fashion. So, when you mention something, I take off and run with it. I had not realized that it bothered you.

Edited to correct typos.

_________________
Trying to Walk in the Light, Hugh
1 John 1:5


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group