Goods points: Bowies and Mini Bowies/jorvik's post

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Goods points: Bowies and Mini Bowies/jorvik's post

Postby JOHN THURSTON » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:00 pm

Good Points Sensei and Stryke San:

Did you Have any specific comment or criticisms of my speaking about the success , and manner of success , of the Eastern Martial Arts in creating a Western Niche??

I would be most curious and acceptable a critique of my post.

I will say frankly that I am suprised I was not 'gigged' a dozen times over it in specific ways (is is not on poiont, it rambles etc..)

And this discussion has not even delved into re enactment groups such as the Ermine Street Guard and The Saxon Camp of which Hugh has spoken.

:D the thought of carrying a Katana under one's clothing does seem unlikely.

But waht about the Wakisashi, or a Short Sword, Large Bowie or "Arkansas Toothpick".

The Laste "Toothpick" I handled sure looked like an early Gladius, but the one I handled seemed not especially sturdy. However, although somewhat shorter than the Gladius, the Larger Type Bowie 'Interpretations" can be concealed.

A recent acquisition of a knife labeled a Bowie (sure doesn't look like one) has a blade with of nearly 1/4' with a solid backstrap and a 3/4 (the length of the grip) tang.

Although it is marked stainless, it can maintain a razor edge and, luke my Rigid mini Bowie (more like 3.4 scale) is resistant to bad conditions.

My Rigid was left by me in the front yard after clening large fish and, although covered in blood, I found it in the spring.

It required only the mildest of cleanup.

well, every once in a while I hit the Start new thread instead of post reply, and Norvik, Stryke and Fred, I am sorry, I did it again here.

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Postby Hugh » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:46 pm

If you or anyone else is looking for a good self defense Bowie that can be hidden beneath a light jacket, sportcoat, or even a shirt with its tails untucked, you may wish to look into one of the Ontario productions of Bill Bagwell's Bowies with a River City inside the belt Concealex sheath. The knives run from $157.95 for the Drifter, the Plainsman, and the Gambler with blades varying from 6 7/8" to 9 3/8" but without the curling guards that Bill's larger knives have. These are available on the Fortress, the Midnight Bowie, and the Hell's Belle which run from $185.95 to $224.95, that latter privce being for the Hell's Belle, the top of the line with an 11+" blade. The curling guards are there to help trap the other person's blade. The prices quoted are from www.knifeworks.com and I have found them to be quick, honest , and reasonable in their pricing. You may also wish to check Knife Center at http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store ... %3Dbagwell

I have a Hell's Belle and it is a very well balanced weapon. Many Bowies, such as the Case and the Western models, are really more camp knives, heavy bladed tools more for use in splitting wood, limbing saplings, etc. than for use as weapons. The Bagwell Bowies are weapons, first and foremost, and would make rather poor camp knives as their blades are too light for chopping. Their clear intent is to be a handy and very quick fighting knives for use by one who has some training in their use. James Keating has a whole series of tapes on the use of the Hell's Belle. He also invites lovers of Bowie Knives to call him and chat about them and he has some fascinating links on James Bowie and on his knives.
http://www.jamesakeating.com/instructional1.html

Mike Sastre at River City Sheaths says that both he and Bill use his Concealex sheaths to carry the Hell's Belle around as described above, so you might call him and ask him about a sheath for one of these knives if you are serious about carrying one. But do remember that there are legal considerations to carrying such a weapon either openly or concealed. Please check first with you local law enforcement types.
http://www.rivercitysheaths.com/
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Postby Hugh » Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:44 pm

Somewhere I have noted that I have been a Bowie lover for over 50 years and been collecting them for nearly that long. Back some time ago, I even took some training in how to fight with the Bowie Knife. It was long before James Keating was teaching this and it was pretty ad hoc if you follow me, but it was being taught by a fellow who had been a paratroop in WWII and had had xome considerable experience in the use of a knife, a KABAR in his case. If you think about it, a KABAR is nothing but a form, of a Bowie.
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Postby jorvik » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:00 pm

I have some issues with Bowie knives :D , actually not the knives but folks calling knives with little blades, Bowies. I don't think anything under 9 inches of blade should have the title of Bowie.
alliance martial arts
http://www.alliancemartialarts.com/
used to be one of my favourite sites for learning about Western arts, and bowie knives etc.it's got a bit commercial lately though :roll: .but still some good stuff
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Postby Hugh » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:44 pm

Jorvik, I can show you any number of historical Bowie Knives, including some from your own country, that had blades of rather less than 9". The term is really a very subjective one when you come right down to it.
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Bowies

Postby JOHN THURSTON » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:18 am

Hi:

I guess one idea about the label Bowie, to make it short, can be either exptremely stringent, Ie:

a. Only the or an original xhould be called Bowie;
b. ok-too stringent, then only a fully functional replica correct in every detail should be called Bowie;

uh??

then:

c. only knives that follow the proportions of the original scaled down to having a bade not less that 9' can be so labeled;
or
c. any knife having incorporated the basic design concepts of the Bowie, long lower blade sweeping to a point and joining the sharpened or could be sharpened convex sweep of the back strap


Ok, well, you get the idea:


Weeeel, before I get to putting up all my Bowies (lost a few) Case MADE a beauty, it got stolen, etc.etc.

Image

The above is from John Wayne's version of the Alamo, it is allegedly the same as the version carried by Alan Ladd in the Ancient Movie "The Iron Mistress" (great flick and better book) but I will have to read some more to verify that.


Image


Allegedly a pic of the Original from "Musso's Collection".

I will check the source tommorrow., and put up some more pics.

Oh, Hugh, I demo'd the offending Viking. The Tang did shrink down to about 1/3 the bladewidth at the base, is about 3 1/2 inches long at that dimension, then it has the typical Rattail bolt welded on, only of about 3/8" which is seceured by a nut in the Pommel.

The Guard and Pommel are mixed non ferrous metal.

The partial tang in rattail are (or were) closely fitted with a medium soft wood, so it was necessary to hacksaw the hilt apart.

The sheath is suede like over a cedar wood base (can't mistake that smell, like a cedarwood chest). The grip is wrapped in the same material (or it was)

The blade is heavy SS which is fairly flexible. You can sense where its limits are.

I am sure I will find a use for the blade sometime in this decade, but I am going to say this sword probably up to doing what I asked it to do, and maybe not much more.

There are at least two you tubes of cuttesting the Coldsteel version.



J
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Postby f.Channell » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:07 am

Like that Scottish dirk on that site.
Is cold steel good quality?

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Postby Hugh » Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:17 pm

OK, the first picture that John posted is from the recent Alamo movie and it is a replica of the Musso Bowie. To see a commercial replica, look here:
http://www.imperialweapons.com/knives.html
The first on the left is the Musso Replica. The middle is the replica of the movie knife from Allan Ladd's "The Iron Mistress" that was also used in the 1950s TV show and in the John Wayne film. The one on the right is a replica of the Col. Henry Fowler Bowie by James Daniel Searles that is currently in the Alamo Museum. Windlass Steel also makes a replica of the Musso Bowie and sells it as the Primitive Bowie. If you order one, pay the extra for the sharpening as it does not come sharpened and it is a pain in the butt to sharpen it. (John, you and your friend can have fun with that one!) Also, the sheath is a piece of s**t. If you know a leather worker, have a proper one made. Nor can I speak for the strength of the tang/hilt as I see no sign of riveting or any other securing. I have all four of these. Here is the link:
http://www.atlantacutlery.com/atlantacu ... spx?ID=390

The second picture that you show is of a knife that is generally accepted as having been made by James Black, the Washington, Arkansas knifesmith most often credited with making the original Bowie Knife. It does not have a brass back strip to catch an opponent's blade as the Musso Bowie has, but it does have some rather interesting file work in the spine that would accomplish the same thing and the curling guards would also assist in trapping an opponent's blade. This is clearly a fighting knife. I forget the name of its current owner. I would LOVE to find someone making a decent replica of this knife! I understand that the Franklin Mint did one some years back and you see them on E-Bay every so often but the word is that they are junk steel and the asking prices are astronomical.

Edited to include the name of the Franklin Mint
Last edited by Hugh on Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cold Steel

Postby JOHN THURSTON » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:25 pm

Hi Fred:

Cold steell apears to be ok. The viking sword comes very sharp, for function instead of reenactment,

Hugh Does not like Cold steel and I agree with him that you should run buy him before you buy.

At this all I have purchease id the Katana and the Viking.

I might be true,per High, that Cold steel steals designs, but their products are at least study accross the Board.

ImageBuk is "this one is OK

and this one is not" The Antique Bowie By Bud K is good, It full tang, thick and sturdy---but it just doesn't feel right. Most of the others are ok.



But, I see that Bud K offers the "Case" Bowive, and I might be attrcted to that. Cold Steel's Bowies on the Budk site are ok, so you might be able to use them as a point of reference.

Image

Welll, talk to you later
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Postby Hugh » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:15 pm

The Scottish Dirk that Cold Steel sells is probably a reasonably solid item with reasonably good steel in it but it in not historically accurate for any period in Scottish history. If historical accuracy is important to you, please look elsewhere. A good basic weapon's grade dirk can be found at: http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store ... ?s=CI034PP It is most likely Philippine-made, but I have seen them and they are solid for the price. Here is a Paul Chen Nanwei Forge-made dirk, but it is a replica of an overdone Victorian Era piece and I wouldn't wear the thing no matter how solid it might be: http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store ... s=CISH1047

If you can live w/o a Scottish Dirk, I can personally recommend the Viking and Saxon Scramasax. I have one and it is some kind of solidly built. The blade feels as if you could hew stone with it and it is sharp on only one side. The only drawback is that the sheath needed a bit of field modification to tighten its hold on the seax as it kept falling out when belted in the manner that the suspension assumes. The weapon itself is based upon a Frankish seax in New York's Metropolitan Museum of Art.
http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store ... s=CISH1075

Cold Steel's Bowies are pretty sold pieces. I have one of the original Trailmaster Bowies, however, and I am not impressed with it. Appleseed edge and all, it can't cut worth a damn and whatever the "Carbon V" steel was at the time that it was made, it is freaking hard as Hell to sharpen so I have never bothered to redo the edge grinds. They are also pretty expensive for what you get when you compare them to the Paul Chen Hanwei Historic Bowies. I have the Bell Bowie and it is a "good 'un" that leads me to suggest that the others would also be good choices. Here is the CAS I catalogue and you can look around for better prices by listing the one that interests you in Google or Ixquick and checking the results:
http://www.casiberia.com/productsearch. ... cat=Bowies

As you can tell from my posts, historicity is important to me. That figures, as I am in love with history and I am invloved with living hiostory and re-enactment of Migration Era peoples as a hobby.
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Postby f.Channell » Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:02 am

Hi Hugh,

I would like one historically accurate. Let me know what you recommend.

I am 60-70% Scottish, at least from 1600 or so.

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Postby Hugh » Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:17 pm

The question is, "How much do you wish to spend?" You can get a solid Highland dirks made by Hanwei Forge/CASI and by Windlass Steel from By The Sword for $80-$100. The Hanwei made ones are coded "SH":
http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/Scotland.html

You can the go into the hundreds of dollars for custom made ones from such as:
http://www.swordsmiths.co.uk/Data/Pages ... ction2.htm 410 Brit. pounds + 30 pounds for a sheath

http://www.macallenarmourers.com./daggers_and_dirks.htm

http://www.armor.com/dagg199.html I included this one as the Highland dirk was an evolution of the Medieval Ballock Dagger (Ballock was an Old English term for testes) and it was carried hung from the belt in the middle of the front in the most obvious place. Yes, you could say that it had sexual overtones. :)

http://www.castlekeep.co.uk/dirks.php This last one is the one that I would be the most inclined to check out were I in the market for a quality dirk. The ones that they show on their products page are just gorgeous and the price includes silver mountings on the dirk and a silver mounted scabbard.
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Postby jorvik » Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:45 pm

very interesting in England we still say " a kick to the Bollocks" :lol:
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Postby f.Channell » Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:34 pm

I know I said I wanted a dirk, but look at this Wallace broadsword. Historically accurate copy they say.
Beautiful.

Image

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Beautiful Weapon

Postby JOHN THURSTON » Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:23 pm

But, "dirks' (although other areas are cloded in this state are not legal and it is clear the police do enforce this law.

Of course, if the weapon is only partialy sharpened )one side) or nor sharpened and maintaind for historical authenticity:

1. it would be legal to maintain one (sharp or not)on one's own premises and or in one's 'place of business".

Refer back to the post on the Ch. 269 s. 10 to refresh on this point.

One would have expected more historical accuracy in the movie, I suppose, but, then, "Stirling Bridge" was staged in a field.

The Scots bottled up the English on the Bridge and a great many English were pushed off the bridge to drown.

Also, it seems to me, that the English Missile weapon superioriy was offset by closing so quickly and maintaning the battle in a confined space.

This, i guess, would also have offsett the English advantage in "mounted Chivalry".

J

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Last edited by JOHN THURSTON on Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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