Gladitoria Americana-2--Opening up Boxing for comment?

[JOHN THURSTON]

Well:

Although it is obvious that true Graeco roman boxing might well, with western fence, be considered the quintisential American and or Western Martial Arts.

But, I know little of it-sorry.

Perhaps restrained threads on basic boxing techniques and the boxers of yore, such as John L. Sullivan, might be a good thing to start.

Again, i would ask assistance in this area although i do not mind setting forth some points for discussion and perhaps even explaining Sensei jack's input into Uechi from his boxing cross training.

Why not Sensei Van talking about la savate to the same end???.

As an example, I am trying to interweave some boxing principles and TC techniques into the class.

Last week (I am allowed one day every two weeks for exploration of applications, non Uechi tecnichniques and theories and the like.)

last week I merely added, for the purposes of the class only, a "boxer's hook'.

To me a boxer's hook feels a lot like the delivery of the horizontal elbow strike, but with the hand extended.

I started the students in a t stance and simply had themstep in to a slightly deeper stance, change the angle of the strike, turn the hips and hook a punch around an imaginary opponent's guard.

Next week, some bag work on the punch with my conception of right crosses.

it seems to me that the hand and elbow move little and the hip change provides the movement and power.

A similar concept is shown in the latter part of "twist and strike" from the T'ai chi set. Likewise the punch is delivered in tight with only the hip change charging it, hardly a muscle in the upper body moves.

This is deceptive as the technique appears weak. It is not.

If done correctly, it is 'unreadable" because, once in proper distance (another matter to get there) the punch is delivered with no "telegraphing" of the coming strike. There is no windup, and no need for one.

i completely suprised myself when this punch twisted out, apparently unread this once, and struck my Sifu.

He was pleased.

Then he kicked me in the head !!!!

It is hard for me to read the ending "eyebrow' inside out crescent kick which is at the end of the set, as one does not really think of it as an "inside" technique. so I was quickly put in my place.


Comments Please!!!!!


JT

[f.Channell]

Hi John,

The fellow who taught boxing at Jacks was Bobby Sullivan. He fought Golden Gloves and in the Military. I've done some training with him, wish it were more.
I was thinking about getting (begging) him to do a class sometime. Let me know if you all would be interested, perhaps I coukld talk him into it.
He's a dan rank in Uechi also.
He told me he watched every style of martial arts there was and chose Uechi because of the Sanchin stance which closely resembled boxing.
The transfer of power and his body movement is best explained by him. But I think it's what your talking about, Joe Lewis had similiar boxing movement skills.
F.

[Hugh]

Have any of you ever seen a cestus, the Roman boxing glove, or an accurate rendering of one? There is a statue, The Boxer of the Quirinal, that shows a Roman boxer with them on both hands. These were leather straps wrapped around the hands and reinforced with bronze plates and, sometimes, blades and spikes. Even with just the basic plates, they were a most effective weapon carried by the street gangs during the period 80 BCE to about 44 BCE, the time of the collapse of the Republic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cestus

[JOHN THURSTON]

Hi:

Fred, sure would like you to pursue the Sensei Sullivan matter if convenient.

We 'try" and have guest intructors every so often.

Of course you are on the list.

Jack has been down several times, but never taught a class.

Mike D. and Billy g. (the former cross trained in Mu Thai) put on an excellent sparring class.

Of course I will keep you informed about any mini event planned.

Hugh,

yes I have head of and seen the Cestus.

A cestus match was briefly depicted on film in either "The Fall of The Roman Empire", "The Robe", or "The Last Days of Pompeii". Maybe you can remember which.


Back to techniques----yes the twist and strike sequence and the hip change in the Uechi Elbow (*horizontal-I will look upo the correct name) tap power in ways very similar, It appears, to the way in which a classic boxer's hook work.

One seems to see better classic techniques in the lighter weight boxing event.

UF and the best heavy weight in the recent past appear to 'morph' classic boxing techniques.

Excepting of course, the late, great and almost forgotten Flloyd Paterson who seemed to be a complete technician if one can go by his book "Inside Boxing".

This book also appears to have gone missing.

J

[Stryke]

Hi John good thread idea .

one of my favourite striking based MA titles is Jack Dempseys championship boxing , boxing is definately something very martial artist should take a close look at

Heres an srticle on some of the changes in pugilisim , an may enjoy the angles on boxers fractures .

heres a link that may start some thoughts amoungst folks , I have some thoughts on it but will let folks have a look first

http://www.savateaustralia.com/Savate%2 ... Boxing.htm

on a side note the hook and elbow comparison is perfectly valid , if one looks at Muay Thai for example , hooks are often replaced by elbows , as they are actually even in range mostly interchangable .

[JOHN THURSTON]

Yes Styrke:

Thank you.

This is not my area of expertise, but, to some extent I felt I was dodging things (Dale did put his finger on the matter) that should be discussed or at least opened to discussion on this forum .

Your constant support is appreciated.

I thought I might get more response to The 299 and The Sacred Band.

Perhaps the subject of the all homosexual Sacred Band was too touchy and rather arcane.

I think the connection between the elbow strike and the Hook pointed out by you is on point.

Perhaps I am going to have my Mu Thay (sp?) friend down again.

JT

JT

[JOHN THURSTON]

BTW

The recommended site that stryke note is good, compact, interesting and to the point.

JT

[Stryke]

Hi John , I read all the thread in here and there interesting , but outside my realms of knowledge so mostly just browse .

but very interesting and definately appreciated .

more thoughts on the boxing later .

[Stryke]

From discussions on historic boxing it seems the prevalance of hook punch is quite a modern (relatively) and is very much to do with the advent of gloves .

with the earlier vertical fist the hook , Ive seen refferrd to as a shoulder punch with the vertical fist striking with the bottom knuckles .

hooks still to most of us , but different .

the reason being the gloves , it was illegal to rub and strike with the laces which could happen with the vertical oreintation .

the vertical also giving the opportnity to thumb the eye , and when grappling was allowed it was easier to grab the neck .

[JOHN THURSTON]

Hi:

I note that in Olympic boxing the limited striking points of the fist are "in white" on the Fighter's Gloves.

I do extend an invitation to you, of course, to come to our little school if you can.

I think I am going to go thru the books I have and the site you gave me and google some famous fighters and see what can be done.

If you want to undertake any of these, do feel free to do so.

Any sort of spinning back fist or backfists in general seem to be forbidden in present day boxing competition.

I think many of our servicemen overseas, having only limited traing in boxing and basic "Defendu" and the like (another point off discussion is that Defendu system invents for the Commandos by sykes Faibairn (sp))
would have been overwhelmed by the greatly increased variety of 'fair otr allowed" techniques shown in Martial Practices around the world and obviously on Okinawa.

Anecdotally I assume many American GI's who had only basic boxing and close combat skills would have been easily embarrassed by any Okinawan Karateka.

I once saw a training film from WWII swhich purported to show Gi's being trained how to do "a karate punch". It wasn't pretty.

The Defendu absorbed jiujitsu and Judo techniques appeared ok, but I am not exactly an expert here.l

As a side note, it was noted in "Citizen Soldiers" by Stephen Ambrose, that part of the reason for American victory in Europe was the fact that yirtually all soldiers in the US Army were fairly familiar with the internal conbustion engine thus reducing the training required and done time on such vehicles as the White Halftrack and Deuce and a half truck.

Surely, however, the aircraft radials in the Tank Destroyers and the Sherman were beyong the ordinary GI's area of experience.

jt

[eric235u]

Hi John. If you seek solid explanation on fundamental boxing strikes Mike D is most definitely an accurate source. I've had the opportunity to train with a couple of professional boxers and anything Mike says I listen to closely. Fun guy as well.

I totally love boxing and have been an enthusiast for a while. One of my favorite things to do is just watch ESPN2 Friday Night Fights and listen to Teddy Atlas talk. He drops strategic gems.

There's been some interesting articles over on the ESPN site as well. Here's one by Borges, Twenty-five years is a long time to carry a memory. Down at the bottom of the page there's some other links on topics like ring deaths.

[eric235u]

http://www.savateaustralia.com/Savate%2 ... Boxing.htm

Hi. I like some of the things you've said but I don't know about this article.

Punching with a vertical fist provides for two things – fewer places in the arm for energy to “get lost” (like a bent elbow or wrist), and more protection for the arm as a whole. The result is that that more kinetic energy is realized as force, and is distributed evenly across the fist. This protects the hand more than if the force was concentrated in one area, while still providing a powerful blow.

There is no energy getting lost. A properly thrown modern boxing punch is a devastating weapon and you'll be hard pressed to find a successful fighter today using this older punch. The films of Vale tudo & MMA don't lie. They are using little or no gloves. While the article is interesting he seems to get lost in his own martial opinion. My $0.02.

[eric235u]

Ok, one more post and I'll stop pestering you guys.

This photo is a great example of (as far as I'm concerned) a perfect hook. See this. Some would argue about his hand position. I had one trainer who always tried to get me to turn it over, but the way he's doing it here it my favorite. The more hip rotation the better. Really blast a hole in your opponent. There's also a visualization of sitting down on the punch and a slight pulling in with the bicep to produce maximum power.

It's such a useful strike!

But that's just my favorite. There's another popular method for a longer hook that's also successfully employed in professional boxing. Floyd Mayweather Jr. often leads with it.

[Stryke]

There is no energy getting lost . A properly thrown modern boxing punch is a devastating weapon and you'll be hard pressed to find a successful fighter today using this older punch. The films of Vale tudo & MMA don't lie. They are using little or no gloves. While the article is interesting he seems to get lost in his own martial opinion. My $0.02.

I agree the article is of course a little biased , as are most , I personally disagree with the fact that while hooks were less common the variation clearly existed in the vretical fist days .

Also just for interest the amount of glove matters very little , the difference between no glove , and even a tight pair of leather gloves with no padding is a world apart when it comes to protecting your hands .

MMA gloves may seem small compared to boxing pillows , but the offer a huge amount of protection to the knuckles and hands .

Jack Dempsey with bare k demonstratednuckles the vertical fist and impacting with the whole fist(actually the two smallest knuckles and therefore landing with the whole hand) in bare knuckle fighting , and he new a thing or two about boxing IMHO .

[Stryke]

Nice hook picture , I concur , I miht question wether the elboe needs to be so popped up , I kind of like the lazy hooks you`d see Ali throw were the elbows stayed more down .