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 Post subject: Spatha
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:11 pm 
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Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
This is another thread that will not generate much comment as it will be only comprised of photos of the swords (spatha)that replaced the "Gladius" in later Roman Armies.

I took one poor sword apart for the satisfactory blade, and another apart for its resemblance to the hilt of the Adrianople type Spatha-I assume there were many types.

Julian was right about the probable decline of Rome's military due to antipathy between Soldiers of different Cristhian sects in the Army

Due to the conflct between Ararian and other Christian sects, and the Zororoastians in the army weakened it.

Sectarian dislike within the ranks could not have helped. Nevertheless, they
Field Armys created by Constantineit were a professional armys quite different from the professional army of the Augustan Legions.

I feel that the original republican armies, being somewhat uniformly pagan, posssed and deliberatlly used their tendency for violence ruthlessly dismayed many enemies,

When the Army was thoroughly professioanal, seemed to have lost the ruthlessness of the Legiones of the Julio-Claudian period..

The reformation of Constantine did away with the singular large legiones, recruited from other places than they were stationed.

The new organization by Constantine, the stationing of limitanses stationed along the frontiers as trip wires, unwilling to go on campaign out of their home provinvce (except in the case, possibly of Julian's Army)

We will talk more about that on another thread.

The Rat tail tang on the spatha replica was broken off by hand, proof of it dangerous weakness as noted by Hugh, and a 3/8 inch bolt was WELDED to the short tang, instead of the "soldering" of the 1/8th bolt to the somewhat truncated tang of the sword I demolished..

I will say that this sword is the equal of many expensive blades and demonstrates, as Hugh put it, my undying impulse to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

But one should always should listen to Hugh on sword matters..

Of Course the welding cost me $65, and I had no bone for the hilt,, but what the heck, hands on fun,

Image

Pic from "Adrianople' by Simon McDowell showing what I think is a late Roman Cavalry Spatha as made by Del Tin.

Image

One view of rebuilt replica by John with help.

Image


A replica of unknown Origin, probably Depeeka made, probably not battle ready or functional.

Image

Another view of my hands on hobby Spatha.

It might not be functional in one sense, but I can't break it.

Image

Another Spatha made by Depeeka, probably not battle ready or functional but matches some historical description and paintings.

Image


A Too small clip of Barta's Spatha. Worth waiting for as Hugh would Say.


Spathas are kind of a thing with me. I have one on order from Del Tin, don't know when I will see that, and another from "Darksword" both worth waiting for.

When in doubt;. take Hugh's advice.

I have a bunch of pseudo Bowies to post. Again it is mostly just for fun, they are what they are.

However, In defense of Bud-k, some of their stuff is poor, but they also, for example, offer a replica of the "Case" Bowie, which is very close to the Musso Bowie.

I got the one without the rather large engraved "Case" on the Blade, and we shall see.


Just a pic of some pseudo Bowies that have stuck to me over the years:

Image


Top Left: Burd K Sturdy Camp Bowie, very sharp and dangerous and well worth the buck, tang runs 3/4 into the hilt, 1/4 inch thick. Wooden sheathr.

Top right: irreplacable and indestructible Rigid Mini Bowie.

I actually LOST this knife cleaning fish in my yard, 2 years s later all it need was a polish. Unbeleivable.

Second on the left : Bud K antique Bowie, highly polished and reswept by hand. I know , I know, but I'm keeping it.

Second down on the right; Implausible Buk K Bolo Bowie-well, it didn't cost much.

Third down on left; Bud k clone, seems ok.

Third on the Right down; Ruku Mini Bowie, very cute, seems fragile.

Fourth on the left: Oneida K Bar. 'nuff said.

Fourth on the right; Incredible Midi Bowie by the deceased Ralph Bone. Very very sharp, a bit brittle, point reswept after break, repolished.

5th on the right-M-9 Bayonet bsed on Probis Design. Wire cutter integral with sheath. Heavy.

Well, it took me and age to get all these pictures posted. so I hope everyone likes them.

If your life is depending on it, though; I'd take the Rigid, but, it's not available anymore.

J

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:18 pm 
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Posts: 595
Location: Virginia
The third spatha that you show is, indeed, a Depeeka model, their Model # AH2001. It is, I believe, the current version of their Koln Spatha and is most likely very durable. The version that I looked at a about three years ago was quite solid but it was very, very blade-heavy, so blade-heavy that I found it to be terrbly awkward. But, then, I am spoiled by my Roman Riding Sword, or so my living history friends have told me. Also. they may have been able to do something about the balance in the intervening years.

Actually, the more recent Depeeka models are not too bad for durability. It is historicity that leaves something to be desired.

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 Post subject: Koln Spatha
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:39 pm 
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Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Yes, although the Koln Spatha, also referred to and a Staubing Nydam hoard type by the sellers is very blade heavy.

T'ai Chi type Gims have approximately the same length-but a, generally much lighter arguably making for an effective 'whipping' slashing sword.

Coincidentally, the Fantasy "Sword of Theoden" employs an almost I dentical blade shape but can be used with both hands.

Although the latter is SS and generally not desirable, it, like one or two of the SS bowies shown, are thick and show considerable flex.

Most Stainless Steel blades, generally to be avoided, are not well made and are very brittle.

But it is only one of the two LOTR Swords I took a fancy to, the other being "Sting". (previously illustrated)

Image

Image

Stainless Steel Katanas are also generally to be avoided, but I do have one that in the manner of early German Iron swords, have a tendency to bend, but it shows no inclination to break as I tried to break it (in protective gear) and it would not snap.

Of course one would become spoiled by the Riding sword-it seems a quallity item through and throuh and only available funds steer me away from it------temporarily.



j

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:38 pm 
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Posts: 595
Location: Virginia
Windlass Steel/Museum Replicas made carbon steel versions of most of the LOTR swords if you are interested in obtaining one that is more usable. They may not be great, but they are head and shoulders above the stainless United Cutlery ones.

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1 John 1:5


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 Post subject: Good Advice
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:22 pm 
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Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Hi Hugh:

Actually, for all I know, unless you can identify the one in the pic, it may be from windlass.

I do not know who this company receives their LOTR Swords from, and I urchased it in a moment of weakness based on the cutting tests and the fact that this is the source from whiich I have received very satisfactory Katana with full details of sword constructiona and tempering.

Regardless, I am unlikely to use the sword for any further cutting. It certainly appears well crafted and sturdy and I noted as a curiousity yhat the blade "shape" (not the constuction) of the Spatha shown and the Theoden LOTR shown are virtually identical.

If you say the Koln type spatha from Deppeeka is sturdy, I will consider it of course.

However, I have ordered from Darksword and Del Tin various other sword. I will endeavor to post a pic of the Darksword.

The Spatha from Del Tim is visually identical to the Albion Cavalry Spatha.

I do not intend to sharpen the Struabing-Nydam type illustratred.

Can you confirm, however, that this sword is likely to be a Depeeka from the pic.

Although I an not planning any cutting with it, your asurance that it is sturdy would make me feel better.

If you are not comfortable with such a comment :D that's not a problem.

thanks my friend.

I will run a search and enter the Windlass site as I am pretty well done with buying el cheapos.

I am planning to finish a complete rebuild od a Gladius. If the blade has a rattail tang, which it probably does, i plan to replace it with no less than a 1/2" welded bolt.

Like the 'hobby Spatha" I expect it will have a partial 1/3rd tang ending at abouth 3-4 inches before the 'rattail" is attached.

since It will not be utilzed for other than light testing, I think a welded one half inch bolt should suffice.

As I said, I am not going that way again, but onlly clearing up loose ends.

Becasue I like to work with metal and my hands after 36 years at a desk or behind a steering wheel, I probably will continue limited 'playing around' with blades.

Some forges offer acceptable sword 'blanks" and this will probably surfeit my hobbylust.


8O

John

J

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 Post subject: Pics
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:53 pm 
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Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Hi:

I am hust putting up a few pics for illustration Purposes.

As noted on an accompanying thread, some manufacturers are are very Tight about where and and how their swords are made.

Just to Juxtaphose for historically accurate visual identifical tion I am posting or reposting several "Spatha" Pictures;


Image
Image
Picture of Museum Spatha (first) and Deltin Spatha.

Picture of Depeeka Spatha:

Image

The 'configuration' of the first and second Spatha can be verified to Wall Painting of Soldiers from Dure Europos Dating from the late 2nd or early third Century:
Image
Image

The painitngs from 'the Pompeii of the East" more rather than less verify the length and shape of the Cavarly Spatha and the Type of fittings of the (can't use the latin word for )scabbard(s) (online) that resemble the type on the (possibly )Infantry Spatha that the Depeeka Illustration matches.

The Depeeka Spatha is shorther than those from the wall painting but I have no fixation on the idea that Spatha type weere uniform accross the EMpire at any given time.

Illustrations from the previously cited work on "Adrianople' also show shorter swords than the Museum and/or Del Tin Spatha.

The illustrations in the work may purposely be varied depending on the authors knowledge of Spatha in use at the time.

The picture of the "Theoden" sword was only included as a curiousity as it matched the "Nydam Staubing " Hoard Spatha replica blade shape, although if Hugh came on and showed me a pic from the Hoard, I would be surprised.

Much Hugh was unable to find the museum/collection picture of the Saxon Sword he is awiating, I have been equally frustrated in finding pictures from the "Nydam Hoard".

I have included a pic of the "Darksword Spatha which matches pics of some I have seen in various works but which I have not copied onto my flickr stie.

Image

The subject of Roman Arms and Equipment is endlessly interesting for me, but undoubtedly I should move on.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:04 pm 
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Location: Virginia
Here is one picture from Wikipedia:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... am_037.jpg

There is a further picture in Roman Military Equipment: From the Punic Wars to the Fall of ROme by Michael Bishop and J.C. Coulston, a name which should sound familiar to you.

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 Post subject: Actually-----
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:00 pm 
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Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
I mislabeled the Adriananople typee" type Spatha (self labeled) as a Koln type at least once.

Sorry.

I think I need a copy of the book you mentioned.

Thus far most of my historical verification has come from Osprey and sites on Dura Europos, so any additional sites or titles would help me.

I don't pretend to know everything and this forum provides as much an opportunity for me to learn as for me to dispel opinions.

I remain a work in progress.

Can you send the page reference in Wiki, I got the picture uploaded, but could get no farther. (further)

i think the Adrianople PIC next to the Del Tin Replica was interesting as was another comment from Wiki regarding Heroden.

Darksword has gotten good reviews, have you any opinions?

I try to bookmark any sites of manufacturors or books that come up as well as conducting my own off the cuff research.

I had quite forgotten any labeling or naming of the swords in the LOTR, so If I did not hear them pronounced aloud in the movie(s) I wpould have forgotten them totally.

The naming of "Excalibur" remains a mystery to me as the 'calibre" part of the name is allegedly Arabic.

To morrow or later i will haul out my word entymology dictionary.

Also Richard's II's sword was alledgedly called 'Balingore" any knowledge on these points?

J

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:04 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 595
Location: Virginia
John, please see this post dated 11/15/2007 from another thread:
Quote:
John, have you acquired a copy of Roman Military Equipment: From The Punic Wars To The Fall Of Rome by M. C. Bishop and J. C. N. Coulston? If not, please send me your address and I will send you a copy as a Saturnalia/Christmas present. If you are trying to learn about Roman swords, you cannot find a better starting place than this book and you really need to read it before you look into buying a Roman sword. This book is a compilation of almost all that is known from the archaeological studies of Roman military equipment of all kinds and is the basic information that you need when you are thinking of trying to recreate a piece of ancient Roman equippage.


By "address" I meant snail mail address. The offer still stands.

Io Saturnalia!!

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1 John 1:5


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 Post subject: Dumb
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:18 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2425
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Hi:

Sometimes I read too fast and miss things despite my best efforts.

Of course I will send my Snail mail address to you Hugh.

I would graciously receive and hopefully reciprocate for any such thought gift.

If I come accross, in return, any thing on the subject matter, I will return the favor.

Do you have The Osprey On "Adrianople" for example???


If not, don't buy it.

I will send the snail mail address by PM and/or the old e mail address I have for you.

If you do not get the PM let me know.

John

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 Post subject: PS
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:31 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2425
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
A valid E mail is in my profile in any event.

Let me know if you can't access the profile for some reason, in any event my most used e mail is Shihans2002@yahoo.com



J

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