Into the "wadis" of death

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Into the "wadis" of death

Postby JOHN THURSTON » Fri May 02, 2008 2:18 pm

Into the wadis of death road the 600.

In this case, Soviet built T-55's an T-62's in the Golan during the Syrian assualts in the Yom Kippur War.

Israeli defenses in the South had more modern US M-60 tanks, which, frankly, did not fare as well as their comrades fighting hull down from ambush in the Golan.

40 Israeli Centurions and Sherman (yes 40's era upgunned M-4 Shermans) destroyed 400 of the 600 and the remainder headed for home.

The casualty rate among the Syrians far exceeded that of the "Charge" at Balaclave in 1854, so the courage of the Syrians attacked cannot really seem to be subject to minimization..

The 'flawed" Sherman design, produced starting in 1942, had been upgraded into the relatively famous "Super Sherman, and the Centurions Gun had been upgraded from the original 12 pounded (as was those of the Super Shermans) to L-5 or similar British desgined 105 mm guns firng (mostly) APDS rounds.

The Sherman had a high silhouette, relatively poor tracked surface to weight ratio, and had thin armor by 1973 standards.

In 1973, 1967, 1982 and in the last "dust up" the Israelis made effective use of rebuilt designs.

The Shemans strength, in this case, was that it was roomy enough to provide some crew comfort (not a prioity in Russian Tank desgns) and to accomodate the massive replament 105mm L5 type main gun.

Centurions and Sherman have also been extensively modified into APC's (Tiran)

25 T-55's were destroyed by one Cenrurion alone.

Some Photos:

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Destroyed Syrian Soft Skinned Targets.

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Upgunned "Tirans" captured in the 6 day War.

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Imprved M119 US APC

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Centruion turned into formidable "Nagmachon" APC

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Smallish Super Sherman Pictures (above and Below)

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US upgunned Sherman, HV 76mm M4E8

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Postby f.Channell » Sat May 03, 2008 12:51 am

Great War English Tank.

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Postby RACastanet » Sat May 03, 2008 1:56 am

The Shemans strength, in this case, was that it was roomy enough to provide some crew comfort (not a prioity in Russian Tank desgns) and to accomodate the massive replament 105mm L5 type main gun.


The Marines brought a few Russian tanks back to the US after Gulf War 1. I had the pleasure of getting inside of one at Quantico a few years back. Man it is bad inside one of those. Tight does not describe the interior. The mechanic managed to get it started that day but we did not take it out for a spin as the engine was really cranky. The armor is really thick but visibility is terrible.

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right

Postby JOHN THURSTON » Mon May 05, 2008 8:22 pm

I had heard this general and dangerous (for the crewa in 100 degree heat) propensity regarding the T-54 and derivative Russian Tank designs.

Crew comfort, even if only relative, has proved very important.


They also use , i am told, an auto matic loader---that's ok, but I guess quite a few gunner's arms have been loaded into the breechs of 100 and 115mm guns over the years.

Ironically, the suspension of the T-34 et seq, was designed by Walter? Christy, and American.

The Sherman did not use this design.

"Sloping" and "no shot trap" aspects of Russian designs were good, but, as in the case of the WWI Briitish Tank---crew life in the heat must have been miserable.

Also, in the British Tank shown, (by Fred) the exhaust vented directly into the crew compartment---or, there was no crew compartment, so to speak.
Still, at Cambrai and Amiens, General Rawlinsons' use of the tanks, in concurrence with the new tactic of "rolling barrages" and "flowing' around strong points Worked rather well and aircraft were incorporated into this mix for the first true 'combined arms operations.

I have more on the trapezodially shaped WWI Brit tank, and I will add it later.

the Germans built and even more ungainly Tank, called the "Scneider".

In the smaller Renault 37mm gunned tank , in which the gunner physically and personally traversed the turret on his shoulders, gunner fatigue must have been bruttal.

Part of the point was that the Israelis built more effective APC's on old chassis that the US did on new designs (in this case the Sheridan) whose designation had to be changed to IFV.

Carrying 6 troops does not an APC make.

However, the 25mm gun does consderably outrange the RPG.



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Postby Hugh » Mon May 12, 2008 9:49 pm

Te name for the Late Roman armored heavy cavalry as used in the East was "clibanarius". This term derived from the name of a small oven, the "clibanion" that was commonly used throughout the Empire. If you were one of those heavily armored troopers campaigning in the deserts of the Near East, the name would be very appropriate. :)
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Postby f.Channell » Tue May 13, 2008 11:29 am

The tank was useful in turning the tables on the Somme in WWI.
I believe it fired sideways so it could shoot down the trenches?
It was brought out in September in 1916 and General Haig had been pushing to get it out in service.
One has to remember there were 100,000 horses pulling ammo wagons on that field.
That tank must have been a shocker to the Germans.

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A couple of up close photes of a Soviet built Iraqi tank

Postby RACastanet » Tue May 13, 2008 9:58 pm

I dug around in my files and found these two close-up shots of one of the Iraqi tanks at Quantico. John: Can you tell what model this is?

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That is me on the left. The mechanic trying to get the tank running is in the coveralls. We also got to crank up a Russian APC.

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Postby JOHN THURSTON » Tue May 13, 2008 11:40 pm

We

The US Military had been itching to get their hands on higher Mark: T-80's perhaps being the most desirabable.

You think that having left us wondering how they were doing this time around would no londer amusing.

Too Kewl!!!!' I think the tank is a T-80 or T 80u with reactive armour fitted.

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