Pearl Redux

JOHN THURSTON is back and eager to discuss Western Martial Arts, especially relating to its history.

Moderator: JOHN THURSTON

Pearl Redux

Postby JOHN THURSTON » Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:20 pm

First Point:

Pearl Harbor is a different place and an excellent anchorage.

Its shallow waters a, I am told, similiar to the Shallow waters of Taranto Italy.

A daring raid was made on 12-12 Nov. 1940 by the same type of aircraft, the obsolete Fabric Biplane Fairey Swordfish, the same aircraft that hamstrung Bismarck when she and Prinz Eugen broke thru the Denmark Straits on14 May,1940.

As you know the Battlecruiser Hood was sunk in an Engagement, but her loss we have discussed and discuss again if desired.



We may also discuss Taranto in detail at some point. But, siffice it to say this was the first time,in wartime, tha capital ships were sunk when their adversary's capital ships could not be seen by the Italians.

Taranto was also a sheltered harbor of relatively shallow water.

I am told, anecdotally, that because shallow water of the Anchorage, the Italians did not deploy 'topedoe nets' to protect the capital ships in the harbor.

Does this sound at all familar?

In any event i am told anecdotally that the Japanese, an ally of Italy who wol d have had observers relating details of the attack through the military attaches present at the time,

The simple daring of the attack made an impression.

Point the second, with far more operational aircraft of better quality, the notion began to Germinate in Japanese Naval circles as to how to strike a devastating blow against the US.

Remember that sometimes sanctions can kindle a war. After 1937, American Sanctions, particularly the cutting off of oil supplies, the Japanese determined to attack the US, Britain, the Dutch and the French,

Although Pearl was the most distant target, it housed the greater (non japanese) part of naval power in the Pacific. We can talk of the loss of Singapore, and the batttles in the Java Sea as part of thhis thread.

Point the third; Japan deteremined to make a major naval air attack on pearl harbor while she could still be sure of sufficient fuel for her warships and plane to complete her plan to create the "Greater Eastern Prosperity Sphere" which would come to include Annam, Thailaand, her conquests in China, and the Oil Rich Ducth East Indies (Indonesia) .

Now that we now an attak is coming I will take a break to post some of the japanese military equipment. More will be added, perhaps to this thread, so you may want to read the opening thread over from time to time as it may be 'fleshed out" and compleeted later. It is a big subject.


Here are some pictures. hopefully more wil be added:

ImageAkagi in an anchoraage

Image


Arizona sinking into Pearl'ls Muddybottom


Image
Another View of Battleship Row from the air including Arizona's fiery death
and a drawing of the start of survey for repairs.

Image



Maryland, lightly Damaged, sits alongside Oklahoma. Subsequent pictures show thr "righting' of the capsized Oklahoma, but the decsion was made NOT to refit her. This made Arizona and Oklklahoma the only two Battleships to bee declared "lost to enemy air attack" as regards the officiaal war records.

Image


Image



The Pictures have captions that explain themselves. More to follow after we complete a comple a pictorial of Pearl Harbor.
"All Enlightenment Gratefully Accepted"
JOHN THURSTON
 
Posts: 2449
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA

Postby f.Channell » Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:05 pm

Now this is an example of Chivalry versus bushido as I know it. It is not chivalrous to sneak up on an attacker.
In Bushido a warrior should be ready at all times, never letting ones guard down. So in some respects sneaking up as they did in Pearl Harbor would be well within their code of ethics of the Samurai. But to the west a cowardly attack to which they paid a hefty price later.

F.
Sans Peur Ne Obliviscaris
www.hinghamkarate.com
User avatar
f.Channell
 
Posts: 3544
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Valhalla

Postby mikemurphy » Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:55 pm

And then there is the caveat of did we know of the attack beforehand. and did we allow the attack to happen? A lot of evidence to say Washington invited the attack, wished it would happen, and then allowed it.

mike
mikemurphy
 
Posts: 989
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891

Postby f.Channell » Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:24 am

A harbor full of WWI era battleships sitting like ducks makes you suspicious Mike?

F.
Sans Peur Ne Obliviscaris
www.hinghamkarate.com
User avatar
f.Channell
 
Posts: 3544
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Valhalla

Postby mikemurphy » Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:39 pm

Fred,

What makes me suspicious is FDR's almost George Bush/John McCain attitude to get America into WWII. Whether it was for the right or wrong reason can be argued at a different time, the fact is, no president should have the power to put us into a war. FDR was well notified by people such as his own intelligence agency, Korean underground, Dutch, and British to name a few, that the Japanese were planning an attack on Hawaii. He did nothing to prepare Pearl for this attack. All the other happenings, such as turning off the radar, or the sinking of the Japanese mini-sub are substantial, but nothing is more glaring than the reports the president was receiving.

mike
mikemurphy
 
Posts: 989
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891

FDR

Postby JOHN THURSTON » Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:11 am

It Is true that Fdr's sanctions put the Japanese is the position to feel that the attack was justified. Thar was Tojo's position and he ne recanted.

I do not think FDR knew the time of extent of the attack. nut hemay have theought, that with the US Not involved in the European war., they might attack the actual enemies of the Axis, which includuded the areas that contained the "oil". As Mike said, it is all about the oil. Japan didn't have any,and Chinese sources were in a war zone that shown ollie prorimise of instant gratification

As for the battleships in Battlesip Row, they were old, but not older than many of many of the Battleships that served thouthout the war., such as Warshpite and other members of the Queen Elizabeth call..

On Paper, more British Batttleships were lost in the war that were battleships of the us Navy.

Of Course, because Pearl was so shallow, all ecept Oklahoma and Arizona retured to combat in the Pacific.


I don't beliece FDR knew the details of tany attack. He kinew, I belive, that cutting of US suplies to the Empire woud provoke an attack.

Because of the peace movement, new battleships constructuctuion (and the Washington treaty and many other factors were only in planning. )

Utah was ,in any case, no more than a taget ship.

Battleship looks like ducks in a row from the air, but, even though the British carried out a imilar raid at Taranto in 1940. air attack on capital ships was still not taken seriosly by American Military planners.

FDR knwe war was cocming witht the Japanese soon, but I categorically disbelieve he knew the detail.
"All Enlightenment Gratefully Accepted"
JOHN THURSTON
 
Posts: 2449
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA


Return to Western Martial Arts & History

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron