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America's rifle and Pistol?

PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 11:51 pm

I thnk that a decent case can be made for the fact that, for non hunting purposes, the AR-15/M-16 should really be considered America's Rifle.

The number of manufacturers turning out AR framed designs seems to grow every week. Of course Colt, frustrated or in retribution for the Mass. AG regs that basically prohibit the importation of Colt pistols into the state, does not ship to Mass. and Kimber of America, also a manufacturer of hi quality 1911 framed pistols has taken the same position.

Personally I have 2 Colts, (1 the HB variant) an Armalite (formerly of Costa Mesa CA. and also formerly makers of the Ar-18.)a Bushmaster and a Smith & Wesson.

I have another "black rifle" or two, one by SIG and One by Ruger based on different actions.

This accounts for 4 manufacturers alone

The Ruger M-14 is an M-1 style turnbolt action. Its gas system is less (much less) likely to inject any dirt into the firing chamber area. Expanding firing gases are, as in the case of the M-1 and M-1A, taken downwards to impinge on a very short operating rod which works the action. I am embarrassed to say that I have not spent much time with the SIG, so I cannot really state with exactitude how the gas system i constructed except to say that it is a "piston" based action instead of the "direct impingement" system of the Colt (Stoner) design.

This Ruger is simply a slightly modified Mini 14 with a recoil compensator, fiber stock and , of course, black finish.

Despite a 13 year ban on the importation or manufacture of over 10 round mags for semi autos in our beloved Bay State, hi cap mags are readily available for the AR and Mini 14. Leading to the conclusion that somebody must have made or bought a very large quantity of these mags before 1998.

Ruger has now introduced their SR-556, which is, at least, 'styled' ergonomically like an AR 15, but I have not handled any of these new items.

FN is now importing an ergonomically similar rifle to the AR, but I hope it is based on the "FAL" or "FNC" type of gas sytem.

Other manufacturers include DSA, Olympic Arms (Washington State :lol: ) LMT (another new entry) and Rock River Arms. Now my memory begins to fail me.

It should be noted that there is a recall notice out on the "Bushmaster ACR" interchangeable configuration AR. My Bushmaster is the Fluted HB type and offers excellent accuracy. We shall see how the Armalite does.

The basic attraction to the rifle is the price and availability of 5.56mm ammo. I am in total argreement that the proposed 6.8mm SPC Cartridge is a better fir for the military, but for us, the cost of a box of 20 rounds would probably be in the $1.00 a round category-or about 2-4 time the cost of the 5.56mm, which has begun slowly to climb in price to the extent that Hornady will be offering "Steel Case" ammunition which, like Wolf, will offer a considerable savings to the non reloading shooter. But with 4-5000 5.56 Hulls lying arounf ready to reload, I am not going to make any changes.

Since the new location of Armalite, to jump back a step, is Geneseo Illinois I might hazard a bet to the effect that Springfield Armory purchased that company name, at least.

As to the Rifles immediate predecessor the M-14. it seems to be the obsolete rifle that will not die.

Militarily it has range and power well exceeding the AR and should, perhaps, be put in the hands of the designated marksman of an infantry squad. It is still in use as a Sniper Rifle and in a "Rifleman's War" in Afghanistan its power and range would get my attention.

Ie: if someone is shooting at you with a Dragunov, you are going to wish you had an M-14 derivative around as the M-4 or M-16 would be out of their depths in dealing with that weapon in the hand of a seasoned sniper or even the above average shot!!

I am Going to sigh off for now. If you can think of more manufacturers of the AR frame, do let me know.

also my comments about the M-16 Clan (as much as I like the ergonomics) are going to be far from positive given the tactical realities of Afghanistan.


Re: America's rifle and Pistol?

PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 4:41 am
by Van Canna
One of mine is an original Colt AR-15 when they first came out...with no forward assist...but for 'urban use' it wouldn't be critical...

The M-1 Garand [original Springfield Armory] was my constant companion in the Infantry and it remains a rifleman's rifle to this day. Excellent long range KO power up to 500 yards and more in 30'06...

I would prefer the AK-47 for KO power to 300 yds over the AR's round...only effective to about 150 yds.

But yes the AR is the one of choice for the ability to carry the most ammo on the move and decent 'Urban' stopping power.

Re: America's rifle and Pistol?

PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:26 am
Hi Van sensei:

Points well made.

Part of the original point(s) being the number of domestic manufacturers of th AR14 frame.
If ne includes the "offshoots" such as the Brish BR80, and the French Famas , which are not manufactured here, ergonomic frames in the 5.56mm Nato do "abound"to some extent.

For reasons of my own I do not favor the H&K frame. Although they fo seem to shoot well enough.

I will get back to this point if interest from others so requires!!!!

Re: America's rifle and Pistol?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:01 pm
by munoz
Please post some pics of your gun so I can see it I am a first timer in gun an


An M-1 Carbine pic, I''ll post some others later.

Re: America's rifle and Pistol?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:21 pm
I willl have to check my photo Library as to whad AR pictures I have.

I will get nack to you shortly.


Re: America's rifle and Pistol?

PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:01 pm
I apologize. I have no current readily available set of photos or my military collection, which is mucch diminished over recet times.

I retain one Krag, one 1903 Springfield, one Garand, one M-1 Carbine, a austrian/imbel based FN SLR, an M-4 type AR, A standard Ar Alpha Deuce, an AR HB Alpha Deuce, a 24" bush master sniper/target A2,, a 20' Target A2 by Armalite, 2 M1a's and two maussers rebuilt in CMP type target Bolt guns.

The negatives on AK-47 types are: 1. too heavy 2. too inaccurate 3. subject to one function weakness: if semi corrosive ammo is used, the resulting corrosion in the gas tube will quickly seize the weapon up, 4. poor sight radius, 5. excessive shaking in full auto fire due to the heavy bolt/gas piston design.

The basic negatives on the AR's are: Fine tolerances can cause jams, the lips of the aluminum AR Mags are fragile and if bent, will cause malfunction, dirty ammuninution (or the residue therof) can cause malfunction.

But in both cases the weapons in questions have served well and long when attention is given to then causes of potential jams.

If you could indicate what aspects of what weapon you wish to see it would be helpful.


Re: America's rifle and Pistol?

PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:32 pm
by Van Canna


I would add this one to my collection, John.

Re: America's rifle and Pistol?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:48 pm
Sorry to Be absent so long I have those times when I do not feel like laying my opinions out to often or too heavily.

I will try to avoid this in future.

Well Van, the hitting power of the 7.62X39 always is ballyhooed about as neing more powerfull that the 5.56 round.

However, in the AK-your chances of actually hitting anything beyond 200 meters is meagre. this happens for several reasons. Energy in the stubby little 120 grain 7.62 falls of very quickly,as velocity drops off (with this round) accuracy diminishes as well. Secondly the sights on the weapon limit accuracy to rather large groups at that range beyond 150 meters., thirdly, as accuracy 'bleeds' off as velocity diminishes so does penetrating power.

In other weapons, such as my CZ Bolt action, accuracy is better at 100 and 200 yards. In the RPD, a much heavier weapon, (SAW For all intents and purposes for the "Muj") less accuracy is actually a desired quantity.

BS? No, British Bren Gunners of WWII actually complained that the weapon's relativiley small groups at extended ranges required them the mowve the Point of aime around to cover an area target---most LMGS naturally produced a spread the allows effective engagement of so called "area" targets..

Getting back to the original point, the M-16 is simply a more accurate weapon. But Ballistic Tables (more or less) do not lie. The .223 cal exiting the muzzle at 3000 fps (55 gr milspec fmjbt) produces 2000 Foot pounds of energy at the muzzle and at 300 yards retains 2100 fps and 957 ft lbs of energy. A decent AR will hit at 300 meters.

The 7.62X39 (Sierra 125 sptfb) will produce about 2300 fps at the muzzle and about 1405 foot pounds of energy and will retain about 1800 fps about the same amount of energy.

So, sound pretty close does it not? However, probably only rifles like my wife's CZ will enable one to seriously (one shot one kill) hit at over 200 yds.

Some Marines were investigated because so many of the "Insurgent" deaths in Fallujah and else were "head shots" (alleged execution style). But it was found that the wounds were mostly in the front of the head and the damage was not consistent with a shot from 50 yards or under.

I cite the AR basic ergonomic design-which can be up graded via a "piston" system-as America's Weapon of choice because of the sheer number of manufacturers producing them and the relative low cost of ammunition.

I would prefer an M-14/M1A platform )a modified M-1) or a piston Adapted Ar chambered for the .270 (6.8mm?) SPC or a similarly based cartridge (a necked dowm .35 rem, whose rebated rim will fit into a modified AR Bolt head. Following the same process to produce a 6.5mm cartridge would be slightly more attractive.