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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:38 am 
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I'd bet you wouldn't dare lift your leg with a straight knee in sparring or fighting Marcus...


Your right I wouldnt , i`m missing that part of the conversation :?

Quote:
Well the one inch punch is the same as the three inch, also the same as the 8 inch and also the same as the zero inch... Guess which one offers the least power?


Absolutely the furtherest technique , but do you not train the 1 inch punch Jim ? , why not just always do the eight inch ? .

I like the shorter because it`s harder to do , start generating power there and anything else is well ... harder :D

I dont see the difference between kicks and punches , except I have a funny feeling something about hands and feet :lol: :lol: :oops:



Quote:
I'm a skeptic too mate..


Me too mate Just trying to get to whats the mechanics of it .

Maybe Neils discovered the axe kick ? , it kind of stops momentum before crashing down huh ?

thought provoking anyhow 8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:48 am 
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I too am curious about the mechanics..

Stryke wrote:
Absolutely the furtherest technique , but do you not train the 1 inch punch Jim ? , why not just always do the eight inch ? .


While I do work short short once in a while it is this distance I use as a rule:

Actually and this is fairly new and deep to me, but I believe in working the punch from the distance of the snap/recoil return point.. This distance will vary depending on arm length and build. In this way the idea is to totally shut off the biceps and attain a completely free and relaxed flowing stream of punches..with no active retraction.

But at some point we train each distance depends on how far away the other guy is.. ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:58 am 
:D 8)

Image


Just couldnt help myself , had to drop in a picture Of Andy Hug ... R.I.P


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:12 am 
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I'm not an axe kick proponent but..

The way I did that kick you whip the leg up with a bend in the knee slight curve into that straight position. Sort of like a crescent kick and then as it reaches the top and straight you drop it on them... The bent knee helps add snap/speed and overcome inertia..

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:16 am 
theres a few methods , but basically i was just funning with ya 8) :D :D


For the record I dont think many folks will axe kick on the street ;) , I know i wouldnt :D , Deffinately doesnt strike me as Wing Chun , though i`m sure some will find it in uechi somewhere :lol:

Laird knows an axe kick expert , can you ask monkey boy how it`s done mate ?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:49 am 
The more i think on this the more I can see something .....

while i dont know If I`d rely on it , it should be doable on just a physical level .

It`s clearly just fajing , the same as a 1 inch punch , you should be able to explode rather than just push with any part of your body , If i cross shins , brush a knee , have a shoulder in there chest , hell even a headbutt . All these things should be able to be driven in explosively without momentum .

Pure muscular contraction aided by correct alignment , it`s all it is ...

Momentum will help yes , but it`s not the prerequiste .

physical co-ordination and muscle control .

And It`s a given it`s probably high end and difficult , and Id say i need at least that 1 inch , especially for the headbutt .

more pondering :roll:


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 Post subject: Foot shove
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:30 pm 
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OK - what is the difference between a punch and a shove?

With a shove you start your acceleration on contact. What Neil is describing is basically a shove applied with the foot instead of the hand. When is a shove most effective in combat? When it is explosive.

Jim - FYI - if you're standing in Sanchin and lift up the leg it isn't all the way straight. It would still have a little bend in the knee and bend = potential energy.

Whatever you do with your arms you can do with your legs.
punch = kick
bridge = stop kick
shove = Neil's LV kick

If you want to shove someone with your arms almost straight you have make the energy from somewhere other than the explosion of your elbows.

If you want to shove explosively with the legs then you've got to make the energy someplace other than the big rotation of the hip and the big extension of the knee joint. So you wiggle everything else you've got and send it out your leg.

Neil - am I close?

-Dana


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:35 pm 
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Dana:
Yes you are close, there is a natural bend in the leg as it is lifted, since no one stands in a straight-legged stance.
And I think Strykes last post nails it as well. The way you and Stryke are defining it sounds very close to what's going on. Jim asked about the target -- so far I'm using the abdomen and hip-crease as targets, maybe solar plexus soon. The "warhead" is the pointed-toe Sokusen which I'm just learning to form.

As for the mechanics and the hip, etc, I'm still trying to get that -- it's a "feel" almost like shaking a quick body-snap down the leg and using the final bit of extension fron the slight bend in the knee, I'd guess about 20 degrees maybe?
Laird:
Definitely no hip or standing-heel rotation, the standing heel has to be absolutely planted. I'm sure of that.

Jim:
As for the rationale for the kick, I think the premise is economy of energy and motion, since very little of either is used except for that brief "explosion" at the very end.

I think there may have been a seminar on this at camp, but I wasn't there so I'm not positive on that.

I'm going to keep working at this and I'll keep you "posted", pun intended.

NM

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:57 pm 
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Stryke wrote:
The more i think on this the more I can see something .....

while i dont know If I`d rely on it , it should be doable on just a physical level .

It`s clearly just fajing , the same as a 1 inch punch , you should be able to explode rather than just push with any part of your body


This is quite true.. And the emphasis in WCK striking..

As I mentioned earlier.. The arm/leg is the nail and the body is the hammer..

However the reality is IME that only a few "techniques" will have enough energy from zero distance to reliably do major damage, which is the goal...

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"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:20 am 
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Jim:
So, exploding is good, with any part of the body, but not at zero distance, if I read your post correctly.
I take this to mean at in conventional thinking, space is required to generate impact force. Large and space-consuming movements to get up to speed, to generate impact force.

Why is that?
Why cannot techniques be effective without a large spacial load-up?

One of the tenets of Uechi is close-range fighting and the techniques that enhance it. Close-range, no-windup techniques fill that bill perfectly.

You mention that a few techniques, in your experience, ARE able to reliably do major damage from zero distance.
What techniques might those be? Are any of them kicks?

One of the concepts of Fajin is instant explosion with no windup, therefore no spacial requirement. No "runway" to take off from.
In Uechi I see this in the Reiken punch (sp?) it's delivered straight up the middle covering perhaps a six-inch travel. The arm movement is minimal because the body delivers the blow. There is no arm extension per se.
(I should explain this: A Reiken punch is delivered palm-up, your elbow is almost over your sternum and the target is inches away.)

This is very close to the same concept as the no-inch punch, I mean, how much linear velocity are you going to attain in six inches of travel?!
So, clearly, the impact power is coming from somewhere else.

The answer is:The "message" is coming from the body: the fist is only the "delivery man".
"The nail" as you say, driven by "the hammer".

NM

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:08 pm 
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2Green wrote:
Why cannot techniques be effective without a large spacial load-up?


Who said large?

2Green wrote:
One of the tenets of Uechi is close-range fighting and the techniques that enhance it. Close-range, no-windup techniques fill that bill perfectly.


This is all we do in WCK spending 80%-90% of training time actually sticking, changing and hitting in bad breath distance.. The 1 inch punch is from WCK.

2Green wrote:
One of the concepts of Fajin is instant explosion with no windup, therefore no spacial requirement.


There is a world of difference between “no windup” and “no spatial requirement.”

In WCK the longest weapon is the sidekick and the shortest in the shoulder. Fists, palms, hit from where they are. But normally start on the line to clear and maintain alignment and balance on the clash.

2Green wrote:
In Uechi I see this in the Reiken punch (sp?) it's delivered straight up the middle covering perhaps a six-inch travel. The arm movement is minimal because the body delivers the blow. There is no arm extension per se.


We also use this, called the splitting punch.. You guys should chain them together! But we do fully extend – that’s part of fajing no opposing muscles no impediment of power..

The nail is straight when the hammer hits it… The whip is loose when it cracks. ;)

2Green wrote:
So, exploding is good, with any part of the body, but not at zero distance


All striking in WCK use fajing. Fajing means hitting with the whole body, both in terms of mass and in terms of all joints used in harmony. The contact point or 'weapon' could be a hand, fist, elbow, shoulder, etc..

The ideal is to use all of your body weight to generate force from the floor through alignment of the bones, sometimes called stacking, driven by all the joints in order to make and focus energy..on impact.


2Green wrote:
This is very close to the same concept as the no-inch punch, I mean, how much linear velocity are you going to attain in six inches of travel?!


Six vs. zero? Like night and day.


2Green wrote:
I take this to mean at in conventional thinking, space is required to generate impact force.


Let's look at what impact force is:
Quote:
Impact force is a type of force in physics that describes the effect that time has on accelerating bodies (up to sign). For example, since

f = ma

for a mass m accelerating at a, then assuming an ideal system, we can set the impact force as,

f=m\frac{dv}{dt}

for a time interval dt.

For example, a train that weighs 1 kg moving at 500 m/s and that hits a 'perfect' steel wall where it uniformly decelerates from 500 m/s to 0 m/s in .02 seconds, has an approximate impact force of 25000 N. Thus, a body which decelerates more quickly has a greater effective impact than one which decelerates more slowly.


So we can see that first off velocity plays a major role in impact and we can see that you can measure energy transfer or force by how quickly the velocity drops to zero. But in order to have any actual velocity before contact you will need a least a little space.. If one is already in contact before any velocity is made there can be no deceleration on impact since by definition 'impact' already occurred before velocity, this is called a push...


In the example above: When the train has a high rate of speed it has stored kinetic energy. The faster the train goes the more energy it will store. Regardless of speed it always hits with all of its mass since it is aligned with the target. In the first example the train could blast through the wall in a great release of sudden energy transfer because of the sudden drop in the speed of the train when it hits the wall, indicating transfer of energy.

However if the train is already in contact with the wall with a speed of zero and then she guns her engines full power what's the most damage one could expect? A dent? A bent wall? Definitely no explosion near the magnitude of the speeding train in the first example. Same train; Same engine, but far less destructive force because no energy was stored kinetically prior to impact because the train’s engine needed more time and space to transfer great power to the train. Time and space acts as a ‘battery’for mechanical energy to be created and stored in an object in the form of velocity.

When you place your weapon on the target first and then generate the energy you essentially gave up the opportunity to store energy for transfer into your target. Now if the distance if zero is forced upon us we may still fajing and indeed it may hurt, like the dent in the steel wall. We can use this dent to steal balance and gain time and enough space to use our fajing to make more power or a stream of power that can then finish the job..

So yes you can hurt someone and yes you can generate power even if already in contact but there is no impact to speak of since contact already existed prior to power generation. Now if you have really, really good relaxed power generation and if you can really make a lot of fajing, I mean a lot then your acceleration will be so fast that you could do internal damage to the opponent, like a bullet already in contact with the target. If you fire the bullet already in contact there is still no impact, the bullet will travel through soft material but if pressed against too strong an object the bullet will backfire..

So except for the MA fajing expert zero distance hits are going to be destructively marginal and used because of less than ideal positional conditions to shock and steal balance which can buy you the time needed to reload and release impacts if that is the goal.

Generating highly destructive short power strikes through body unity, looseness and fajing is hard enough without holding out the idea that a fajing push is going to be a fight ender or even close; some weapons like elbows and palms in the right positions can cause whiplash from zero distance because you can rapidly accelerate the head or neck using your fajing, however this is not an impact…! And at this range you’d be better off either going into a neck lock or choke, etc at this hugging range or making the two inches of space needed to make true impacts.

We use short power so we can stick and change on the inside and still make good impacts from a very close range, say down to three inches. Once you get closer than that we train to simply make the three inches of space though fajing or to use closing and apply locks or chokes, etc..

In the end if your weapon is three inches away from the target and you simply place it on the target and fajing then you wasted the space which could have been used to store much more power on the way to the target. a waste of space.

I hope this was clear..

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"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:13 pm 
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Hi Jim:

Before I respond to your excellent post, which I am by no means rebutting, I would like to point out a common error that a lot of people make when applying physics formulae.

The formula "F=ma" (Force = Mass * Acceleration) is NOT USED to calculate the force DELIVERED by the accelerated object, nor the kinetic energy it accumulates by being accelerated.
The formula F=ma is used to calculate the FORCE REQUIRED TO ACCELERATE the MASS.

Take your train analogy for example.
The train has a mass of "x". You want to accelerate it at a rate of "a-per z's" The formula tells you how much FORCE is REQUIRED to get it going there, not how much energy it will carry due to its movement.

This is one of the most often-quoted and most-misunderstood formula of all time.Incidentally it is known formally as Newton's Second Law of Motion, which you can look up in any high school text if you wish to verify this.

********************************
A better formula for your purpose is K= (1/2) mv2
"KINETIC ENERGY= 1/2 of the MASS, times the SQUARE of the VELOCITY.

It is kinetic energy that a moving object delivers when it hits something.
Velocity is easier to use in calculations because it is a constant speed, not a rate of change, as is acceleration.
Note that the formula immediately discards one half of the mass.

Unit of ENERGY": joule. (1 joule is the energy needed to push with a force of one Newton over a distance of one meter.)

Unit of FORCE: Newton: The force it REQUIRES to accelerate one kilogram from rest to a VELOCITY of meter/secon, in one second's time.

Unit of VELOCITY: meter/second.
****************************************************

All the points you made were excellent Jim, and I'm thinking about all of them, but the formula you used to support them does not apply.
Don't feel bad, you're part of a large group!

NM

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:18 am 
2Green wrote:
Unit of ENERGY": joule. (1 joule is the energy needed to push with a force of one Newton over a distance of one meter.)

Unit of FORCE: Newton: The force it REQUIRES to accelerate one kilogram from rest to a VELOCITY of meter/secon, in one second's time.


Based on this theory, I should be able to push two newtons two meters because I have two Joules hangin' right here!

:P


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:30 am 
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Neil, impact force energy transfer via deceleration over time was the point of the math there, not to show kinetic energy storage.. I'll try to do a better proof next time.. Oye vey…

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:41 am 
physics and karate.... *sigh* whats the world coming too???


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