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 Post subject: Interesting post Jim
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:05 am 
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Do you train short power? Like hitting your partner with your fist or hand only a few inches away?

Yes, with palms, fist and experimenting with elbows as well. The entire body is used to create a short burst or “whip”, I like the term “Vibration” however. In tight waltzing distance with of course no windup, dropping your center into the partner. The hand is just the means of delivery correct?
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This relates to short power, you only have that short space to make the transfer, unlike with say a reverse punch that has a long length of expansion and therefore time to transfer energy.

Agree
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Well it will not be accelerating AFTER it meets the target, but it could be accelerating up until it meets the target.

Were on the same page I think, it can not be pushed into the target. The deceleration of the fist for example after impact will still send energy into the target like water shooting out of a hose.
If the fist is stopped by tensing the muscles the energy will remain in the arm with little transfer of energy into the persons body.

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The idea is that any energy left after the connected mass strike makes the impact is not going to increase the impact force, nor will a "push" at the end of the strike do much in the way of increasing damage since it is very much a last minute push.

So yes full extension and power transfer may not be complete on impact but the energy push trailer isn't what's doing the damage as there is no accelerating connected mass to transfer this energy to after impact.

Last minute push is not useful I agree, but energy left after the connected mass strike I think can be funneled into the strike (like water shooting from the hose)

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In the air the strikes <punching air or missing> we train the muscles to shut off before full extension of the arm or elbow joint

If you train not to have a preconceived end point in air strikes or missing the muscles seem to adapt without injury. Also, the ability to hit harder is enhanced.
Doing sanchin arm thrust I allow the arm to extend fully and the entire body is involved in recoil. Some thrust may actually be longer than others in the kata as each cycle is a life in itself. This seems to translate into short range strikes as well, the entire body becomes the handle of the “whip”

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting post Jim
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:24 am 
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Leo,

We seem to be in agreement for the most part, lots of times this all comes down to semantics. But I don't know what you mean here:

CANDANeh wrote:
Last minute push is not useful I agree, but energy left after the connected mass strike I think can be funneled into the strike (like water shooting from the hose)


If the strike is complete, meaning impact has been made I don't see what you are meaning to do with the leftovers.. :?

The general idea is to get it all into the strike, meaning pre-impact.. If we don't get it all in there before impact then we are not getting as much energy in the impact as perhaps we could.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting post Jim
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:49 am 
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JimHawkins wrote:
Leo,

We seem to be in agreement for the most part, lots of times this all comes down to semantics. But I don't know what you mean here:

CANDANeh wrote:
Last minute push is not useful I agree, but energy left after the connected mass strike I think can be funneled into the strike (like water shooting from the hose)


If the strike is complete, meaning impact has been made I don't see what you are meaning to do with the leftovers.. :?

The general idea is to get it all into the strike, meaning pre-impact.. If we don't get it all in there before impact then we are not getting as much energy in the impact as perhaps we could.

The leftovers...good one 8)
You just may be correct, my thinking may be flawed in regards to adding more after the impact.
A drill I practice is placing my hand od the target (person ideal) and generating as much force starting from the floor and creating a "wave" eventually delivered through the palm or fist with little movement as possible. This concept seems the release energy after the impact. Therefore, possible with any strike. However, after playing more with this tonight I realize that the energy is already transfered in the instant.
My thoughts strayed off the path but I find it not at all difficult to admit I`m wrong. good points and well presented Jim :)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:43 am 
You can add more after impact , it goes to penetration follow through and time on target . It may be more of a push but it`s still disrupting .

i`m familair with the other train of thought too , but i dont agree .

Quote:
I like the term “Vibration”


this is shotokan terminology , though it was never taught to me and is a fairly lost theory in some circles .

but Ive seen it and it`s great , is kind of like going Uechi on mechanics ;)


Last edited by Stryke on Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:44 am 
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Thanks Leo! :)

But hey there are lots of different kinds of mechanics and ways to use the body.. I was mainly talking about straight strikes, and in my case a straight CG centerline strikes. But in a sense the leftovers might serve as loading for the next strike in some cases.

A key element in the Chinese systems is that as in playing good pool the next shot must always be set up in by the current one so for example in elbows one elbow could load the other <we turn the whole body for elbow fajing so one loads the other> or there may be a small recoil for repeats on the same elbow. And for fajing we try to be sunk and then use all the joints with body alignment.

----------------------

On an aside, one of the points I wanted to emphasize on this thread is the importance of using space. Normally we train to take away space, but some is needed for good power, more with fists, less with palms, still less with elbows. But we need to make a lot of power in these strikes and some folks get wrapped up in the idea that their little short bangers are going to kill the opponent, however, EBGs are generally not going to drop that easy.. Take a look at last weeks Ultimate Fighter - 10+ downward elbows to the cheek before the guy even started to tap and they were power blows.. You want to talk conditioning.. To be effective these short shots we do need to have major power in them, from the whole body <think of the dog shaking off water> they have to keep coming and when the range closes folks need to let loose with elbows in the same non-stop manner from the clinch.. Not nearly enough elbows used in tonight’s Ultimate Fighter but when Tom remembered to elbow from the clinch wow what good results ... This is a major focus of my training and it's surprising not to see these guys working more of these short power elbows from the clinch, and you don’t need nearly as much space for those babies.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:47 am 
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Stryke wrote:
You can add more after impact , it goes to penetration follow through and time on target . It may be more of a push but it`s still disrupting.


Disagree.

Time on target results from penetration which has nothing to do with a push. Neil you got a formula? :lol:

Keeping your hand there after the strike serves no purpose unless you want to do a lock. Otherwise you could have hit him again instead of pushing..

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:06 am 
How about disrupting the centre Jim ? and creating space for the longer range shot ?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:17 am 
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Stryke wrote:
How about disrupting the centre Jim ? and creating space for the longer range shot ?


Speaking for me..

It all depends..

With the linier straight blasts your body is behind them so you normally are driving them backwards anyway. This assumes that their center is open and you are hitting to the CG. BUT the concept you mention there about making space is what we do with structure.. So the opposite hand might press their bridge into them <CG> while the other hits, Bong can do this as well as other tools. BUT normally I don't want space per se.. I prefer to move through the ranges, I don't know if WCK is supposed to do that or not but I like the idea and dynamic of going from straight blasts, to palms to elbows, you could then continue into a choke or lock then or you could egress after the first couple.. all depends. But in general I like to work the outside hand range to get into short hand range to a half clinch and/or elbow range, so I don't really want space.. And I think that inside work even for smaller folks is vital, not to be avoided, like some suggest. Those elbows are just too good at blitzing the clinch and breaking holds.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:22 am 
Sweet :D !!!!


Must be the shotokan guy coming out in me huh 8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:02 am 
The beauty with short range is you can fire it again , drop the one inch drop it again drop it again , blast em back a bit drop it agin , piston punch the bejeebus out of em .

Incremental striking perhaps .


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:30 am 
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quote: I like the term “Vibration”



this is shotokan terminology , though it was never taught to me and is a fairly lost theory in some circles .

but Ive seen it and it`s great , is kind of like going Uechi on mechanics


Hey Stryke
Your right about the source. http://www.shitoryu.org/bios/tsuruoka/tsuruoka.htm
Masami Tsuruoka (formly ******now Tsuruoka-ryu) taught this at a NS summer camp years ago, I was captivated by the man...no politics no BS and he demonstrated and taught "vibration" which gave me more insight into some Uechi concepts which eluded me prior, he had a way of passing wealth of information on to anyone who would listen.

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Last edited by CANDANeh on Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:33 am 
Great stuff Leo , funny how Uechi gave me some insight into this Shotokan stuff and vice versa :D

Aint life cool 8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 12:36 pm 
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Quote:
Keeping your hand there after the strike serves no purpose unless you want to do a lock. Otherwise you could have hit him again instead of pushing..
I agree Jim and didn't get what time on target meant either. From seeing Jim Maloney do a very brief time on target demonstration on DVD #2 Summerfest 2004 and he seems to be mean follow through using the body. I think the hanging extended hand idea comes from doing air punches and people thinking the time on target happens after the strike is finished. At least that's my take on it.

By the way DVD#2 features Rory and Maloney and I recommend it).

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:12 am 
So how does follow through vary from continuing the strike ?

confused ? not continuing the strike and follow through creates images of the karate slappy tag punches ....

I wish i could just get Laird to hit ya , it`d be much easier to communicate what i`m trying to


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:44 am 
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This relates to my old thing, about On/Off/Sneeze just posted it again up on Bill's forum.. IMO it's the Western mind illusion thing again.

Depending on what kind of mechanics...You have a range of powered travel, whatever that is THAT's the sneeze and the power charge.. Could be 3 inches or three feet, but the connected mass does the follow through for you... Like the bullet.. The powder charge only fires once; The bullet does the follow through without assistance later on. Attemptng to follow through beyond the original powder charge translates to hyper-extension of the elbow, stiffness and wasted time and energy.. IMO of course.. :)

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