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 Post subject: kotaekitae
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:44 am 
Quote:
It should be noted that besides it's obvious benefit as a conditioning drill, 'kotekitae' is sophisticated push-hands and trapping flow drill.


so who/how does one practice Kotakitae in this manner ?

Is it commonly used to develop sensitivity and receiving force/trapping ?

http://www.mariomckenna.com/UechiHistory.html


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:16 pm 
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Location: Virginia
Raffi had us doing a flow drill last year that was a lot like kotikitae. There was even a chop in it but it was towards the head... but this was arnis.

My guess is that you make your kotikitae more flowing . Focus more on the blocking and attacking aspect of the drill. Don't wory about locking into a sanchin stance. Make it a game where you both are trying to "tangle" up the other guy.

That's how I'd do it. I think a less static/robotic contikitae will reveal a ton of openings for arm hyperextensions, and ways to break the balance. Look at how wing chun does chi sao and you might get an idea or two.

Pretend you are doing kung fu and not karate.


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 Post subject: Kali/Arnis video clips
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 7:13 pm 
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I can't open many of these at work.

There are a few empty hand drills that may give you some ideas Marcus.

Various videos of Phillipine MA's


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:57 pm 
Thanks Ben , Ive got some good variatons to that effect . But thanks for more :) ,

Am surprised no Uechika actually had more input on this .

It is obviously much more than conditioning to anyone who`s done these sort of drills .


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:58 am 
Quote:
Pretend you are doing kung fu and not karate.


Who`s pretending !!!!

Paingainuun Chun fa is a chinese art !!!!

I`m just hoping some folks are doing it and some ideas , and the wheel doesnt need to be reinvented again ...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:51 am 
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I've done the drill which i'm not sure what you may call, in a kenposchool
with trapping and striking. One low, one middle and low again. I call this chinese conditioning since I saw a Kung fu student doing it in fighting black belt kings.

The more traditional conditioning can be varied with slicing your strike down across the forearm and striking in to the wrist with your wrist.

Another version is not considering it a strike at all but to allow the punch to extend, then winding up and giving it a good solid middle block hit.

These are variations but really hard to put in words when they could be explained so easily in person.

Sensei Mattson also had an excellent magazine article on conditioning at one time on this site. Perhaps it's in the articles section.

F.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:32 am 
Thanks fred , i`ll have a search !!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:57 am 
http://www.traditionaluechi-ryu.com/sistema-f.html


:D :D :D 8)


Quote:
his Chinese friend "Gokenki" (expert in the technique of grulla white that later would influence in several styles of Okinawa) commented the teachers of Naha and Tomari that in the town of Izumi lived a great expert on authorized Chuan-fa by the Chinese teachers.


I really get bugged by Gokenkai , he crops up everywhere and I can never find out much about him ...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:15 pm 
Hobud-Lobud from kali/Escrime is very similar and used for trapping :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:05 am 
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Location: Valhalla
Gokenki popped up a couple of times in Dragon Times articles and stupid me loaned out the editions.
Never got them back.

But it seems he was a friend of Uechi Kanbun and had a tea store in Okinawa. He was originally Chinese and lived in Fuchow. He changed his name to Yoshikawa and established the Eiko Sagyo Tea store in 1912.

I bet they had a few healthy sparring matches in the back room of that tea store.
8)
He was also a friend of Miyagi Chojun also. Legend has it he fought a Naha Karate master and defeated him. Then several others challenged him.
When pressed for instruction he recommended Kanbun Uechi.

I bet there's a lot of Gokenki in our system.

Most of this can be found in Alan Dollars book.

F.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:38 am 
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In most sticking drills use of energy in terms of a strategy and programming that strategy is the main focus of study.. "Conditioning" is simply a by product of the connection or contact between the two players which may not even be the primary objective of the drill.

Depending on the Energy Strategy, which involves the kind of force, e.g. spring energy, as well as the vectors or directions used in order to control space makes all the difference and determines what if anything is being programmed by the drill. In some sticking drills like WCK sticking almost all hand/arm techniques both offensive and defensive are trained and reinforced via the energy concepts applied in the drill.

This training allows the both hands arms body and even legs to be trained to extemporaneously incorporate whatever movements, techniques, use of energy and position etc., are needed at the moment to adapt, flow and take advantage of the opponent's energy and position, or lack thereof. This minimizes the need for visual processing and conscious processing so reaction time is cut down to a fraction of what would otherwise be needed.

While a modicum of skill in the above training is acquired quickly refinement and perfection of the skills will take a lifetime and those who have trained for many years often achieve a level of skill that seems to defy explanation.

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"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:44 am 
Thanks Jorvik !! I`ll take a look at it .

Hey Jim have you had a good look at kotaekitae ? , do you agree its much more than a conditioning drill and could be remanants of another practice ?

Gokenki evens pops up in shotokan references Jim , he had a huge influence it seems , though no one seems to be able to nail him down ..

the crane dominates in Okinawan Karate it seems .


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:53 pm 
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Stryke wrote:
Hey Jim have you had a good look at kotaekitae ? , do you agree its much more than a conditioning drill and could be remanants of another practice ?


No I don't know if I've seen this.. Got a clip?

Stryke wrote:
Gokenki evens pops up in shotokan references Jim , he had a huge influence it seems , though no one seems to be able to nail him down ..


It's more critical that some might beleive..

{Cross posted in part}
The sticking training makes training some things possible that otherwise either wouldn’t be or would take a very long time to develop otherwise. Sticking training takes the clash, which happens in the blink of an eye and puts it under a microscope, magnifies it a thousand percent and injects the lessons learned directly into the CNS via tactile and visual feedback. This gives folks the time to refine and cultivate critical attributes that normally exist in combat only for a split second. Many of the techniques in these styles are designed for this range and compressed time reaction with contact but without this kind of contact study many movements and postures will seem out of place or seem to have no reason for being..
[/quote]

Stryke wrote:
the crane dominates in Okinawan Karate it seems .

[/quote]

{Cross posted}

I see the wauke component as applying as much on the inside as the outside reference point..or even...changing from inside to outside and back...:idea: If you are speaking of the wing hand and then I still see that as working inside and outside.. Some have suggested that the outside line is superior and that the inside line is equal, but the mantis moves like the inside, so do tiger, while crane often likes outside, and I think all of these inside systems address inside and outside control, you can't really have just one - just like ground fighters will train both side controls and mounts, guard, half guard, there are a lot of different positions to work.

The thrust thing is off line from a WCK standpoint still I agree that it seems to be an inside 'clear' but the centerline is off from how we use it.. This difference seems to manifest from the mantis vs snake influences, the snake in WCK, has this thrust start from the heart or center and shoots out rising a bit and riding the line, generally toward the eyes. That's the in-inside.

The sanchin thrust seems to take one of what I call the "double" centerlines that mantis sometimes uses. I do not fully understand how this structure relates to centerline control that they refer to but from what I know they seem to train splitting moves that seem to emulate the mandible of the mantis.

_________________
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:22 am 
i`m thinking a lot on the double centrelines , Ive a clear preference for neck manipulations and it fits there . The targeting is clearly of centre , it also proposes some interesting options for trapping and turning the opponent .

Hopefully the penny will drop one day .


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