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Flash-LAPD SWAT adopts unsafe weapon!!!

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2003 1:11 pm
Hi all:

Obviously, this is a tongue in cheek topic.

What it refers to, obliquely, is the weapon "that served my country well for many years" (R. DeNiro-in character) the 1911 et seq pistol in .45 ACP. The Beretta 92 is now in military service (and has not been approved in Mass. either as far as I know, neither is the esteemed and venerable Browning "pistol grand puissance' (Hi Power))

His Opinioness J. Gordon Liddy did state flatly on a recent talk show that the "Nine Mike Mike" (Nine millimeter parabellum) was not felt by members of the military to be adequate. The 9mm as most of you know is roughly in the same power range as the .38 special and has been in service with European Armies since 1909 (or so) so it is 'Adequate' in the sense that it 'gets the job done" but it is surely not optimum as a man stopper.

This is discussed in a recent American Rifleman vis a vis the adoption of the ,45 acp in the Phillipine Insurrection as the Military .38 in service was not effective in halting the charges of "bang' hopped up Moros.

More on that later.

I believe the FBI has cycled throught the use of the .45, .38, 9 mm and has settled on none of the above (.40 S&W) as a compromise between the .45 and the .38.

At the present the 90 years in US Military service 1911 (a1 is the most common) is deemed 'unsafe' by our esteemed Massachusetts Attorney General Reilly.

At the same time, a highly customized version of same manufactured by Kimber of Oregon was adopted as the standard sidearm of the LAPD SWAT team, according to a recent article in the American Rifleman.

How did this absurdity take place?

Is the 1911 unsafe? Not to one with a minimum of training and common sense. Is it as safe as, say, a S&W 4506? No, probably not, as the latter has a magazine safety (I hate them) and a very robust safety mechanism (which completely covers the firing pin with a piece of steel when the safety is engaged.)

The "Massachusetts Safe" S&W's are, normally, disturbing as the semi autos have the unlikable magazine safety and "bobbed" hammers which cannot be used to control the weapon. A dangerous situation for those used to the 1911.

This is in use by Smith & Wesson here to qualify the their semi autos as safe since the double action pull exceeds 10lbs as required by Massachussetts regulation. (based on the perception that children cannot pull this weight-since under Mass. law all weapons must be stored in locked safes, boxes, etc., or be 'trigger locked'-thjis is lost on me. An assumption that an adequate law will not be obeyed)

The 1911 is also victim of the fact that it takes about $10,000 to qualify (through testing) any weapon, usually modified from standard, as safe in Mass..

Understand that any handgun is deemed unsafe in Mass. until proven otherwise .

Colt is not really manufacturing 1911's at present, and Kimber, Springfield Armory, Federal Odinance, Rock Island and several other manufacturers of "1911 clones" simply do not care if their weapons are sold in Mass. or not.

Since Smith makes a decent "Mass. SAfe" .45 festooned with all the 'bells and whistles" (costing up to $1700) this is not an impossible situation for .45 afficionados, just really, really Stupid.


PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 12:10 am
by RACastanet
Hmm... my favorite pistol is an unsafe Kimber!!!

The FBI has purchased specially modified Springfield Armory 1911 for its special agents. Also, the USMC is looking into acquiring a batch of 1911s from someone. Perhaps the FBI will have to stay out of Mass when carrying the unsafe firearms! I know, they can check them at the border.


PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 12:44 pm
Hi RicH:

I know your reply was in jest, but I will seriously warn you NOT to bring your Kimber into Mass.

Unless it is locked in a locked container in your locked trunk.

Check with the State Police should you decide to brina firearm into the state.

None of the states have any reciprocity re: firearms permits as far as I know.

I am good for NH, Mass., and Maine.



PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:37 pm
by Van Canna
I know your reply was in jest, but I will seriously warn you NOT to bring your Kimber into Mass.

John, I recall discussing this with Panther once.

Question was_ if you are licensed to carry in Both NH/Maine/Vermont etc. and also licensed to carry in Ma. _

AND you brought/carry the Kimber or other 'non approved pistol'_ that you bought legally in those states_ into Mass under your Mass' license to carry, you would be in compliance with Mass laws_ Is this so?

A 'cocked and locked' 1911 [condition one] is safe to carry by the licensed person and we don't argue that.

If you keep the .45 with empty chamber and loaded magazine all the way in_ and unlocked_ would a child know enough/be strong enough to chamber a round _ by cycling the heavy spring of the slide back and forward into battery?

Any studies made on this?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:37 am
by RACastanet
Hello Van. I installed an 18.5# recoil spring in my Kimber 1911 primarily to improve the reliability of feeding ammo.

It is really difficult to chamber a round with that spring. Since I practice with it I am accustomed to really grabbing the slide hard and giving it a hard pull. However, even other males who are not accustomed to such a heavy spring have trouble with it. Most women cannot rack it and I suspect few children could.

Note... this is not my self defense weapon but my target weapon. Sweaty, dirty or bloody hands would have a tough time chambering a round. I primarily use it for qualification shoots where high scores are important.

A standard spring is probably 15 or 16#. The springs are cheap, and a high quality replacement would be less than $10. Give it a try. With the 18.5# spring it will reliably feed even when the firearm is really dirty.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:15 am
by Van Canna

Interesting the 18.5 spring. Will it work in any .45? Such as a Colt Commander tune up for combat shooting _ a Springfield Armory ‘defender’ and my Para-15_ .45?

But as you say, blood, mud, or even a hand injury and with the heavy spring_ you will have an expensive brick to throw at your enemy.

What do you recommend for the best spring other than the 18.5?

I think Para-15 for home defense plus a pump .12 gauge.

On the move_ Glock 19 [extended mag.] and Bushmaster M-4 _Lightweight/lots of carry ammo and reasonably effective.

What do you think of Wilson combat .45s?

The one I fired had a trigger that ‘broke’ like glass. Exceptionally accurate.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:33 am
by RACastanet
Will it work in any .45?

Yes, buy one that matches your firearm. You will also need to buy the correct length. The spring I installed was made by Wilson Combat. How about that. A good firearms store will have a large selection of these springs. I have no personal experience on their firearms though so cannot comment. But, their after market parts are well thought of.

The one I fired had a trigger that ‘broke’ like glass.

Yes, that is the ultimate trigger feel. I had a retired Marine armorer do a trigger job on one of my M1s and it it like that. Mmmmm. It is so sensitive I have an unmodified trigger group for it as well for non target use.

What do you recommend for the best spring other than the 18.5?

If you are using really light loads for accurate target shooting and feeding you can drop down to a 12# or so but I have not tried one. Anything more than 18# would be tough to rack. However, they are available to 26#s or more.

Click on this site for Brownells and more springs than you knew existed! ... 10&si=True

My 1911 is a Kimber Gold Match and is hand fitted for accuracy. Unfortunately after a 100 rounds or so it will bind and fail to feed without a good cleaning. The heavy spring solved that problem.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:00 am
by Van Canna
Ha..anti-jam heavy spring.Good to know.

I have an old Remington pump, among my pump collection. Thinking of going this route_

What do you think?

And this the other Wilson I like Image

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:03 am
by RACastanet
Two good ideas.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:06 am
by Van Canna

What is the best ankle holster you have found for a snubby?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:42 pm
by RACastanet
Good morning. I do not have much experience with them but would buy the Fobus if I decided to carry that way.

Here is a link: ... nds3%2Etam


PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:50 pm
by Van Canna
Thanks, Rich.

Over the years I must have bought a dozen ankle holsters.

Problem I find is that they all gravitate down to the foot so to become somewhat visible as one sits. They don't stay put in the original position.

Not a good thing.

PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:14 pm
by Stryke
I`m getting confused with all the new forums , Van is it ok to keep this stuff on your forum too , yours has always been the place to discuss self defence realitys ...

George are you sure mirroring Scott forums is necessary ?

PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:30 pm
by Van Canna
Hi Stryke,

Sure, do whatever it is most convenient and helpful so that all can benefit. :D

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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 5:52 pm
by LiliaMooley
Something alike was discussed on the,i can give someone a link if anybody need it