dropout ratio...

[2Green]

Does anyone find that the dropout ratio of trainees is higher among males, or females in your experience?
All the females are gone from my class, even one teacher.
Is there a predominant reason why females might drop out?

A lot of males have dropped out too. Males seem to vanish when they get their black belt, but lots vanish sooner.


I miss training with women, and some of the women I trained with were very talented at Uechi Ryu techniques. Fast and fearless.
But now, sadly, they are gone, taking with them the examples and insights that in many ways helped me.

It's a loss.
I'm just wondering if this is a trend, or just my isolated experience?

NM (guy)

[MikeK]

About what ages were they?

[Dana Sheets]

This is a tough question. I'd be very interested to see a comparison of attrition in students in a "traditional" vs a "commercial" school. Traditional being small, few students, possibly low to no fees. Commercial being larger, many students, possibly higher fees, higher risk and higher liabilitiy.

And at different points in our lives we have competing priorities. We' not always moving away from one thing but rather towards something else. For example, Jane isn't really moving away from her karate, but moving towards her life as a busy executive and mother.

I did a google on martial arts and dropout and found this article at a school:
http://www.skhquest.com/articles/DojoDropouts.aspx

An honest average for the martial arts industry ranges from 7% to 10% dropping out per month. The absolute best dropout rate we’ve been able to find in the martial arts industry is around 2% per month, or almost 100% by the end of four years. (The math is: 2% x 12 months x 4 years = 96%) That is a 400% dropout by the end of four years. Compare this to Harvard’s 7% at the end of four years.

So if a dojo loses about 10% of their members per month and doesn't add any new members then they'll be pretty small prettyquickly. Compound that with the fact that fewer women join martial arts schools than men and you've got an instant formula for why you don't see many women in any martial art, let alone Uechi.

The above article also lists many of the reasons people leave.
Below is also a business oriented article about NAPMA. It's not very well written but it does highlight one of the mainstream views of people who dont' train martial arts.

http://www.martialinfo.com/articles/art ... w.asp?i=51

Martial-Arts Group Kicks Some Life Into Stale Industry
By ROBERT JOHNSON
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

CLEARWATER, Fla. -- The owners of the nation's 15,000 martial-arts schools are an insecure bunch for such supposed tough guys.

John Graden, under the banner of a trade group, is trying to change that, introducing modern marketing and management techniques to an industry that has more resembled a religion.

Martial-arts teachers fear competition. Holed up in shabby storefronts, behind their dusty trophies, they are threatened by new teaching techniques and isolated within their particular disciplines -- from jujitsu to tae kwon do.

The industry has long been a disorganized mess: The same kicks and blocks have different names at different schools. Accrediting agencies often don't recognize each other. And standards for belt promotion -- even what rank is signified by what color -- often vary.

"The martial-arts business has to widen its audience," says Mr. Graden, a 40-year-old former karate-school owner. An affable, athletic man, he competed in national karate tournaments as a young black belt in the 1980s, perhaps martial arts' heyday. Back then, the business was surging, thanks to baby boomers' children who loved the movie "The Karate Kid."

John Graden hopes his National Association of Professional Martial Arts will build unity within the martial-arts industry.

But, Mr. Graden says, "those kids are college age now and out of martial arts." Today's kids are into soccer and skateboarding.

What's more, martial arts doesn't make itself appealing to adults. "Most successful people won't be forced to wear unflattering uniforms and white belts that scream, 'I'm a beginner,' or bow to some guy they're paying," Mr. Graden says...(snip)

And this looks to be an interesting book. Anyone ever heard of it?
http://www.guardup.com/Merchant2/mercha ... gory_Code=
ACMA Instruction Manual
Chapters include:
ACMA Manual Outline

Introduction: Traditional Methods vs. Traditional Techniques

SECTION I: The Science of Teaching
Chapter 1: How to Teach Martial Arts Skills, by Ann Boyce, Ph.D.
Chapter 2: How to Structure Your Curriculum,
Chapter 3: How to Reduce Student Dropout,

SECTION II: Physiology
Chapter 4: How to Conduct a Proper Warm-up, by Sarah Chung, M.A.
Chapter 5: The Proper Execution of Calisthenics, by Sharon Spalding, M.Ed.
Chapter 6: The Proper Execution of Flexibility Exercises, by Tom Thompson, M.S.
Chapter 7: How to Conduct a Proper Cool-down, by Sarah Chung, M.A.
Chapter 8: Understanding General Adaptation Syndrome, by Willy Pieter, Ph.D.
Chapter 9: How to Teach Kicking Safely, by Tim Niiler, M.S.
Chapter 10: How to Teach Self Defense Safely, by Tim Rochford
Chapter 11: How to Teach Sparring Safely

SECTION III: Psychology
Chapter 12: Teaching Strategies by Age Group, by Derenda Schubert, Ph.D.
Chapter 13: How to Instill a Sense of Purpose in Your Teaching,
Chapter 14: What is a Healthy Martial Arts Hierarchy? by John Donohue, Ph.D.
Chapter 15: The Power of Motivation and Charisma in the Martial Arts Instructor, by Brian Tracy
Chapter 16: The Role of Discipline, Praise and Punishment, by Gianine Rosenblum, Ph.D.
Chapter 17: Teaching Character Skills Responsibly, by Scot A. Conway
Chapter 18: Teaching Students with Attention Deficit Disorder, by Derenda Schubert, Ph.D.
Chapter 19: Working with the Parents of Students, by Don Korzekwa, Ph.D.

SECTION IV: Risk Management By Scot Conway
Chapter 20: A Crash Course in Law
Chapter 21: Avoiding Negligence
Chapter 22: The Use and Maintenance of Safety Equipment
Chapter 23: The Proper Use of Student Instructors
Chapter 24: How to Avoid Sexual Harassment Liability
Chapter 25: School Layout to Minimize Risk
Chapter 26: The Importance of Water for Student Safety
Chapter 27: The Proper Use of Release Forms

[MikeK]

We' not always moving away from one thing but rather towards something else.

Nicely put Dana. I've never quit karate but somehow I don't get to class as much as I'd like.

[chewy]

In my exerience there isn't a significant drop out rate difference between the sexes. More often drop outs are tied to life events (graduation, new kids, new job, etc). I'm fortunate to have found a very diverse dojo in Stow, MA. My instructor (Sensei Saunders) is a woman and I believe at least half of the adult classes are women. In fact in one recent class I was the only male in the class of eight (myself, Sensei Pat, 4 teen women, and 2 adult women).

I've also been fotunate to have the same experience at work, which is odd given my profession (electrical engineer). Out of a group of 10 engineers 4 are women and one is my immediate supervisor.

I don't want to play up the "differences between the sexes" thing too much, but I definitely notice a difference in atmosphere at work and the dojo when there is even balance of men and women. The dojo is extremely interesting in this type of environment. I'm actually a fairly large man (6'3", 250 lbs) and the women get to appreciate what it is like facing off against an opponent that may outweight them by 2x. At the same time I find that I have to focus on using proper technique rather than just throwing my weight arround. Otherwise, when I end up working with people closer to my size (usually men), I get pummelled because I've been training myself to throw my weight/height around (i.e,. cheat). Another thing I have to watch out for is the fact than many of the women (especially the teens) can throw some high+powerful kicks. Just when I think a round-house is coming at my kidney they, with a slight twist of the hip, force me to defend my head/neck region .



cheers,

chewy

[TSDguy]

That book looks fascinating. I've always been extremely annoyed most martial arts ignore psychology, physiology, sociology, etc. These things are so ridiculously applicable to everyone, but we're stuck doing it the way they did it 2000 years ago.

It takes me months to find a new school when I move because of that, and I'd put money on saying many new students drop out when they realize this as well.

I.E. a football player comes to class to improve his balance, he's going to know better than to swing his leg up over his head to "stretch".

[jorvik]

Well for schools there are conflicting motives. Fighting arts need to be sold , if you want to make a living out of them, but there needs to be commitment from the students if you want a "learning experience"and something that works
I've often thought of getting a small group together, just to teach the stuff that I like .maybe explore some ideas, but then you have to get these folks, and they have to be of a similar mind and committed.............I watch my own Tai Chi teacher, he has different classes, the one I am in is heavily into the MA side of things......and there are only 3 or so regular folks .but when he teaches the arty-farty brigade there is about 40 so he has conflicting motives, if he wants the money and has a good line in Bullschitt he could make that 40 into 400 no problem...but if he wanted to get into fighting I reckon he'd only have me as a student

[kelly]

I was actually thinking about the same thing last semester at school as several of our best females dropped the class. It's different in the college setting for a multitude of reasons.

The main reason is time. While going to class for an hour and 15 minutes isn't much of an inconvenience, with fiveor six other classes to study for and a job, some people are too overloaded to do it. While both men and women have cited this, we've had more women drop the class because of this than men.

Expense is another reason why people can shy away. While the instructor charges nothing for the class, you need a gi and sparring equipment. While it's not a must have, most people get tired of doing pushups and eventually go out and get the equipment or drop the class because they don't want to spend a hundred dollars to get into something they aren't sure they will stick with for a long time.

Sparring. While most of the girls that have come through the class in the past couple years have really taken to sparring, some of them dropped it the first few times they got hit. While for the most part it's well understood that you will get hit doing something like this, some of the girls didn't necessarily seem to rationalize the idea. Some just don't want to spar, plain and simple.

Getting a grade anyway. My school made the karate class a one credit course that could be repeated as often as one liked (alternating between introduction and advanced). The biggest draw to the class is the one credit 'A' that you get. The instructor can't force the student to show up, nor does he want someone in the class that doesn't want to be there. Three of the girls that dropped last year said it was silly to go to class as they were going to get the "A" anyway and aside from picking up a little something here or there, that was all they really wanted.

Overall though, the dropouts from the class tend to be women, with about 5 ladies vs 2 guys dropping per semester. It might also seem larger based on the smaller number of women in the class than men, which might also be a factor for them to stay or go.

[2Green]

That's a very interesting insight into Karate as offered in a scholastic setting. I found your comments on sparring thought-provoking.

Also, I can see why people would be disappointed to sign up for Karate and wind up doing pushups in class.
I've never seen the application of that training either.

NM

[Bill Glasheen]

In my 14 years teaching karate at UVa, I found some interesting patterns here.

I didn't allow sparring until after a semester and a half, and 2 tests. The first was for basics, Sanchin, Kanshiwa, bunkai, kotekitae, and general knowledge. The second was for partner work like kyu kumite. I always had "midterm tests" that got the yakusoku kumite out of the way, and prepared people for sparring in the second half of the semester (after a beginners class). It also kept them from dropping out during midterms... . I learned all those tricks about keeping people from using school as an excuse to drop out.

Anyhow, I found equal dropout rates for the first semester with limited contact in the curriculum. But the dropout rate jumped up more for women than men when teaching the yakusoku kumite, and then doing the sparring. Generally you find some women don't really like the contact. Partly it's because they don't like being black-and-blue, and partly it's because they really don't like to hurt others. The contact sort of brings it all up front and center.

Once past that sticking point, then I found out it works out pretty even. I did find one other pretty interesting phenomenon though. If a man and woman "coupled" in the class - and that happened often - then breakups sometimes resulted in someone dropping out. And 80% of the time (or more), it was the woman rather than the man who dropped out. Strange... One of my female students (who made it to sandan) even wrote an article about that phenomenon.

The women who DID make it to shodan often were top notch. I cut little slack for them in my classes. No abuse, but certainly no patronizing. Back when they had "best candidate" votings for dan tests in New England, I ended up with 3 female "best candidates" to every male who won this honor away from the New England gang. Yep - those who stuck it out were keepers.

- Bill

[Dana Sheets]

Without striking contact but with tons more of other body contact the dropout ratio in judo was similar to what I see in Uechi. Though when I visited the university judo club in Lille, France when I was on exchange I was suprised to find many more women students than at my own college club. This might have to do with the fact that they had several black belt women judo players...but I don't know.

And Kelly - welcome to this forum and thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Dana

[kelly]

Thanks for the welcome Dana.

I think that the presence of a female black belt, gives some of the girls something that they can aspire to. A female black belt joined our class mid-semester and while it was hard to say whether some of the girls stayed in because of her presence or the ones that were going to drop had already dropped, her presence can only have helped the girls in the class. I think her presence did so much more than motivational talks about how you can go as far as you want to go. It gave the girls a real goal that they could reach for, something tangible that wasn't out of a movie or a book.

[Guest]

Thanks for the welcome Dana.

I think that the presence of a female black belt, gives some of the girls something that they can aspire to. A female black belt joined our class mid-semester and while it was hard to say whether some of the girls stayed in because of her presence or the ones that were going to drop had already dropped, her presence can only have helped the girls in the class. I think her presence did so much more than motivational talks about how you can go as far as you want to go. It gave the girls a real goal that they could reach for, something tangible that wasn't out of a movie or a book.

Kelly, have you trained in Melbourne with the Indian Harbour Beach group?

[Guest]

Here's what I see at our Largo, FL dojo.

A traditional martial arts curriculum that has a history and tradition.
A Uechi training program that has been reassembled with modular scheduling, time-driven class plans, and performance objectives.
Select, trained instructors who have demonstrated excellence in Uechi-Ryu and who implement the program utilizing contemporary martial arts business and sports training and psychology techniques. Instructors are well-paid, qualified teaching professionals.
A large, modern, technologically current multi-classroom million dollar facility especially built for martial arts instruction.

Leadership dedicated and fully commited to the martial arts as a career.
A genuine respect and concern for each individual student. Sensei Ric knows and recognizes every student. The kids swarm around Master Guishi on his regular visits like he's a grandpa figure.

A Sensei dedicated to family values. A Sensei who is supported by his wife and children in his endevors and who are in fact mentors and role models for the students. A Sensei who wishes he had more eagles in his golf game.

A school with nearly 400 enthusiastic and energized students who each pay a monthly tuition of $150 - $170 . A dropout rate of 3.0% . One of the instructors is Erica Martin, Sensei Ric's daughter who is an awesome 18 year old Uechi Nidan who has exceptional technical proficiency and is highly enthusiastic about a career in the martial arts. Two younger daughters who are very talented and willing junior black-belts both in Karate and Kobudo and role models who set a high standard for children in the kid's programs. The majority of adults are moms and dads of the kids who are enrolled and karate is a family financial and time priority endeavor.

The families relate to Sensei Ric and his family and there is a loyality established. There is not now nor has there ever been a shortage of women. While the majority of the students are kids, for the adults, for example, there is now one woman Sandan, three Nidans and two Shodans in Karate and two Kobudo shodans. Nearly half of the colored belt students are female. And if these Uechi Warriors who vist the dojo would stop stealing our women we'd have more!