What makes a shodan?

[jorvik]

Mike
Quote
"Can you clear that up?"

yeah this relates to another thread.On Van's forum . Apparently somebody took offence at something Tony said about Karate and went around to his house to "Clear things up" ....the point that I'm making is that Tony is an ex-soldier who has been in a war zone, as well as training boxing and doing some really good kata....now this guy obviously thought because he was a "Shodan" or some such that he would be on a level playing field .......I'm making the point that he wasn't.......and not by a long shot
Now don't misunderstand me I'm not saying anything bad about Shodan grades I'm just saying that they have been devalued and the whole thing has been taken grossly out of it's original parameters.
Being a shodan does not automatically make you a great fighter, doing a kata well does not make you a great fighter........and even if you do make shodan then it does not confer these things on you for life , if you don't train themn you are really only a white belt pretending to be a black belt.............and how many beer belly,blowhard blackbelts have you met?......heck I've met hundreds. That is really my point.................I prefer to judge people by what they do, as I would a boxer or a wrestler................or if it's pretty kata that you want a Dancer..........I don't want other folks to prejudge for me and put a label on somebody that doesn't measure up to what I think.
years ago When I did Aikido a girl came on the mat wearing the pleated skirt ( Hakama)....now I at that time assumed that she was a blackbelt, and as I am not sexist I treated her as I would any other blackbelt...but she couldn't take the throws and she became quite upset .......anyway my Sensei then explained to me ( a bit bloody late) that girls can wear Hakamas at any grade ...............so you see my point?.........and this was a controlled atmosphere, and I wasn't trying to hurt anybody.

[Guest]

I think when you make Shodan, it's time for you to give something unique back to the art. God forbid if it's something more unique then your egotistical sensei though.

Jorvik, that guy was a fool. I would have destroyed him and his friend and would have been justified in doing so.

[Dana Sheets]

I think two key points have been mentioned:
-giving something back
-not something you have for the rest of your life

Giving back
It is usually right before their shodan test that I've noticed as the time when folks indicate their interest in teaching. It has always been my understanding that the door to being a teacher is opened to everyone and some will enter and others will not. In that sense I mean that some people train their skills as a teacher as much as they train their own karate. Other people are happy to teach one-on-one in class or even cover a class from time to time - but they have zero interest in running a dojo, bringing up their own students, etc. Both are good. So teaching an art is one way to give back to it.

And, IMO, one of the best things you can give back to an art is your training. If you continue to train your art you keep it alive. Uechi-Ryu without people actively training Uechi-Ryu would be just a small footnote in history. Also as soon as you stop training the art your knowledge of it (and your reasons for any innovations) will begin to fade away. Of course - if you don't love it - you should also be quick to stop -- because your dislike and unrest will affect your training.

Impermanence
This idea of impermanence is important. One of the ways the western mind copes with impermanence is by collecting our accomplishments. We have long resumes, family photos, souveniers (items that help us remember), etc. A black belt sort of falls into the category of souvenir. It represents hours spent doing something, it represents improvement in skill, and it represents a certain amount of tenacity. But that doesn't make for a good hollywood movie or a good braggart's story. So our mother culture has morphed unduly both our expectations and our perceptions. I'm not sure who said this first - but training in karate is like paddling a canoe upstream. The moment you stop paddling your skill beings to flow downhill.

Since a black belt is conferred from an individual teacher to an individual student at moment in time...there isn't really a group of the "secret black belt police" that will knock on your door and ask for the belt back if you stop training. And your black belt will always represent the work you did to receive it...it just may not represent the work you're doing today. All grades are given in arrears. You get the rank after you've done the work...kind of like the Oscars...and you have that award for life. It is well deserved.

What should help keep a black belt humble (and sadly what it does instead is make many louder and more boastful) is the knowledge that if you're not training your skills are flowing downhill. This was something I noticed during my trip to Okinawa. When the teachers spoke of the past - they always spoke of the accomplishments of someone else (usually their teacher) and not of themselves. When they talked about their training today, only then did they speak of themselves.

[CANDANeh]

Shodan to me is like your gaurdian removing the training wheels from your bike.
Awarding a Shodan rank to someone is a significant event to that person (most people), it should highlight to the recepient that he/she has demonstrated the basic Charactoristics for that style in form and yes development of charactor. The latter being most significant in my books. The "sensei" or board in turn must in my opinion ask themselves "how will this individual present his/her self to new students?"
Being overweight, too thin, muscle bound, physically or mentally challenged, tattoed, pierced all over, quiet by nature, and so on... not a factor if they pass expectations of the physical part of the test (which really should be by that level more or less expected). The sponser of the candidate should feel accountable as well, I know I do.

[JimHawkins]

What makes a shodan will be very much dependant on what the organization issuing the rank thinks a shodan should be..

Despite the tendency to minimize fighting ability being a major characteristic of rank, some MA schools will not award high ranks to folks who cannot demonstrate a good level of skill in fighting. Shocking isn’t it? Hasn't Judo always used the competition/fighting model?

These schools will only give out rank when the student can clearly demonstrate good fighting ability... This may not be the focus of all schools, but it is the focus of some. It all depends on what the school, teacher, and student are all about. If the style is a fighting style then how can fighting not be a major component in measuring skill in that art? If a fighting 'art' then how can one teach an ‘art of fighting’ if in fact this person cannot or has not actually fought reasonably well with it? Does the art, school or system teach fighting or something else?

It's all a matter of perspective and objectives.. In my old karate school folks had to fight well to get high rank. Folks testing for high ranks were put through the gauntlet, sometimes having to fight more than one person at a time, sometimes taking a beating; in the end if they passed, it means they made it though the ordeal, they 'survived' they fought well. Many say this is too hard on students... But whatever happened to 'cry in the dojo, laugh on the battlefeild?' Budo training was never supposed to be a nice walk, or kata, in the park...

I think a good example of a reasonable and modern testing venue today would be a scenario drill test, as in the Fast Defense training. IMO a shodan should be able to handle a realistic sd scenario in order to make shodan.. If they can't then they have no business IMO being handed a 'license' to teach "self defense." Most students when they come to the dojo want to learn how to fight, how to 'defend themselves' and so when the true focus of the training, teachers or school is something else then these folks are being taken for a ride.

Now, some folks may not be training to learn how to fight, and that's fine but it should be made very clear to new folks just what IS being taught and trained. Otherwise these people are most certainly being mislead and in the long run given a false sense of confidence in whatever the non fighting training consists of and true goals of the school are.

[MikeK]

Well put Dana.

What makes a shodan will be very much dependant on what the organization issuing the rank thinks a shodan should be.

And that will always be an issue and will keep a "black belt" somewhat subjective. A person can now be a black belt in anything from MCMAP to BJJ to TKD to Six Sigma. Same term but each means something different. All indicate a level of achievement but the achievement is different in each case. A belt may even mean something different to the person awarding the belt and the person receiving it.

These schools will only give out rank when the student can clearly demonstrate good fighting ability.

But even this can mean different things. What constitutes good fighting ability? Alex Gong was a very good fighter in the ring, but his life ended tragically in a needless street confrontation. Even a term like self defense can mean many things.

From an interview with Royce Gracie.
Q:What do you have to say to the people who criticize the Gracie Academy for 'holding back' belts?
A: A belt only covers two inches of your ass and the rest you need to back up on your own.

In the end it really comes down to the person.

[Van Canna]

Jorvik

Now don't misunderstand me I'm not saying anything bad about Shodan grades I'm just saying that they have been devalued and the whole thing has been taken grossly out of it's original parameters.

That is really my point.................I prefer to judge people by what they do, as I would a boxer or a wrestler................or if it's pretty kata that you want a Dancer.......

Careful my friend. You might be violating forums rules, and subject to ‘action’_

The argument will be that you are tagging traditional martial artists, including Uechi-ka who frequent these pages, and are heavy in kata practice, in a negative manner.

[jorvik]

Thanks Van .............but ya'know I have never ever said anything negative about Toyama,Nakahodo or Gushi Sensei......I wonder why that is

but I must make the point as well that we live in a different world than the old masters .......a much more savage and brutal world. In old Okinawa they lived off the land and Sea.they were closer to nature, which is a good thing.
We live in Concrete jungles with animals disguised as humans. maybe even demons disguised as humans.
Today in my newspaper I read of a young black guy, from a good Baptist family, with good school grades.parents worked all their lives, never claimed benefits ....kid wanted to be a lawyer, he was walking his white girlfriend home when some punks picked on him coz he was black.........upshot of it is ...they burried an axe in the back of his head.just coz he was black!!
I really believe that we must embrace the 21st century when it comes to self defence.use everything at our disposal......and yet try to maintain the "spiritual" qualities the old masters obviously had..........why aren't there Gun Kata??...the Okinawans have "hairclip katas"..or "Pen" kata............Don Rearic has some excellent articles on Pens used as weapons.maybe we should go a little deeper into what we do, and follow the principles that the masters of old followed.

[MikeK]

maybe we should go a little deeper into what we do, and follow the principles that the masters of old followed.

snip

...and yet try to maintain the "spiritual" qualities the old masters obviously had...

Which old masters, which principles? You sure about them all having those "spiritual" qualities? Why does someone spiritual need to know 108 ways of killing someone?

I really believe that we must embrace the 21st century when it comes to self defence.use everything at our disposal

I agree, so how do you train that? How do you know everything you have or don't have at your disposal?

Boy are we wandering off the topic.

[jorvik]

quote
Boy are we wandering off the topic.
No I don't think so ......."through a small door enter deeply" Zen

[Dana Sheets]

I have often joked that if I ever start to train kobudo the first kata for me will be the "three cans of tuna fish inside the plastic grocery bag" form. Because I find myself to be in my most vulnerable positions when I'm loading groceries (or other purchases) into the car.

I used to carry a gun often before I moved to DC but here in the land of security gates and ID checks it's just too much hassle. Sometimes if I'm going out to a club I'll carry gun or a knife - but many clubs here also have metal detectors at the door. So much of the time it's just little ole me against the world. So training empty handed most of the time makes sense.

I've never thought of Uechi-Ryu as a complete self-defense system and I don't even pretend to be able to teach complete self-defense. I tell people that we do traditional training - which means forms, lots of repetitions, and the fostering of a mindset and skills that can help when things go badly. To help with that we consent to all kinds of things most people find "weird." We bang limbs, try to hit each other in the head and body, try to kick each other in the groin, grab each other, try to make the other person fall. To folks outside the world of martial arts that sounds like a nightmare day on the playground when they were a kid.

Our school doesn't have a focus on training fighters - we have a focus on training people. We still hit hard and fast but the goal is a better person...they become a better fighter because of the training. They don't always become good fighters however all of them improve. In fact the longer I'm around martial arts I think that a good deal of good fighting ability comes from the person and the training simply give them a tool to hone their innate skills. I might be wrong though.

Our school is not on the cutting edge of self-defense training. Blessed be the Sonnons and the RMCATs and the Kourys others who do this work and I'm happy for the folks who share their interest.

However I firmly believe that many people who will never be great fighters can experience lots of personal growth through the traditional training methods So do we close the doors of our training halls to people with a low aptitude in fighting? Or do we create an enviroment where they are welcome to join us on the path of training?

[Mills75]

I don't know there are so many things to look at and so many ways to look at it. I always come back to believing in the system i'm training and trying to be the best I can be at the system I fully believe in. I want to be as skilled as I can become in Uechi while not being distracted and searching the world over for a piece of this or a piece of that because I feel if i'm looking then I can't concentrate on developing what I've found.

Much like I can't really spend to much time playing with the radio while driving the car. If I spend time not believing in my system completely and searching for pieces of others then to me I'm taking time away and cheating myself out of progress I could be making at what I'm already doing.

I guess I will always be like the man named Shoalin who posts from North Carolina who asked when does a system stop being a system and when should you start calling it something different. I think that's when you add and change to many things about it that takes it away from the core of the art like he said.

I am as they say or labeled here a preservationist sincerely and I think you people are great people and good martial artists for certain who I enjoy talking to and reading opinions of. However I really believe we'll never agree or see eye to eye on Uechi is and what it means but that is totally fine and people are different.

My goal is to train everything as i'm taught a million times over and make it a slight bit better every single time I go through it and improve on the concepts and techniques already in the system.

I sincerely believe all the pieces of the puzzle are there and I just need to devote my full attention to finding the key and unlocking the door to knowledge in my system.

Jeff

[RACastanet]

"why aren't there Gun Kata??."

There are if you train in the right dojo (MCMAP). Bayonet as well. They are really more of a prearranged kumite to be honest but even with simunitions the 'pain penalty' is there.

"the "three cans of tuna fish inside the plastic grocery bag" form."

Very realistic thinking. Around Christmas time last year one of the employees of the security company I work for part time was loading his trunk with groceries. He was accosted from behind by a knife wielding assailant. Needing to create space he turned and flung a quart of egg nog in the perps face. The startled perp stepped back and then saw the barrel of a 9mm Glock pointed at him. Needless to say he decided the cost-benefit ratio was not in his favor and he quickly departed.

Perhaps we should have a 'holiday beverage' kata to go with the tuna fish kata. We know the beverage kata was effective so perhaps we could base the system on using it and perhaps naming the system after it... Egg Nog -ryu. Perhaps "Weapons of Opportunity - ryu.

Rich

[Guest]

Theres some Gun kata in this Christian Bale movie:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0238380/

[MikeK]

I have often joked that if I ever start to train kobudo the first kata for me will be the "three cans of tuna fish inside the plastic grocery bag" form. Because I find myself to be in my most vulnerable positions when I'm loading groceries (or other purchases) into the car.

Dana, when I was on jury duty the deputy in charge of us said a Walmart was the #1 place to get robbed while loading the car. Many times the BG will also pick the victim while they are still in the store. Nice thing about Ukrops is that you can always get a bagger to come out with you.

How about an awareness kata?