Ok, so whats the deal with the Bankai for the Gedan Barai in Sanseirui? I was taught that the guy kicks you, and you punch the bottom of his foot with a shoken and then toss it. What does a shoken to the bottom of the foot do? How many times have you managed to punch a foot in sparring much less hit it with a single digit?
wierd...
Sometimes I think some of the stuff that Americans where taught was just a practical joke to get back at "white" for the A-Bomb. Jump the sword, punch the foot, good god! what's next? Those guys over there are probably all laughing at us now while they're rolling in our dough!
Truly, revenge is a dish best served cold...
Shoken to the foot?
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Dana Sheets
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Kidney 1 is at the bottom of the foot where the shoken is shown to strike. This is just behind the ball of the foot in the middle where the foot is softer, has less muscle and can be damaged easily.
We're talking about three four principles - lowering your weight, vital point striking, balance displacement and cavity seizing.
The much higher percentage technique is scooping up the leg and tossing it upwards for balance displacement.
The reason you need to drop your weight is so you have the flexed the body down so you can go up with the leg once you've caught it.
The shoken in the bottom of the foot (vital point striking) in my opinion has maybe a 3% chance of success. However one person I know who trained for many years on Okinawa told me that someone did indeed shoken the bottom of his foot and he was curled up in a corner in pain for several many minutes.
The other lower percentage skill is seizing the base of the achilles tendon. So there is also a cavity press. Again something that is not easy to do in an altercation - which, of course, why you have to train it if you want any chance of it working at all - even if that chance of success is less than 5%.
The scooping shoken happens 3 different ways in Sanseiryu depending on how you do the kata. Once off a turn into the verticle leaning elbow, once off a series of shokens, and once as the third in a series of dropped center techniques that include an opposing force strike and a downward sweep. So each time in the form it is a follow-up movement. Icing on the cake. If you capture their leg you can capture their balance.
So there are two levels there:
basic is balance displacement
not basic which includes the cavity seize on the ankle and vital point strike to the base of the foot.
AND I'm still very much on the learning curve for this one - all thoughts are welcome.
We're talking about three four principles - lowering your weight, vital point striking, balance displacement and cavity seizing.
The much higher percentage technique is scooping up the leg and tossing it upwards for balance displacement.
The reason you need to drop your weight is so you have the flexed the body down so you can go up with the leg once you've caught it.
The shoken in the bottom of the foot (vital point striking) in my opinion has maybe a 3% chance of success. However one person I know who trained for many years on Okinawa told me that someone did indeed shoken the bottom of his foot and he was curled up in a corner in pain for several many minutes.
The other lower percentage skill is seizing the base of the achilles tendon. So there is also a cavity press. Again something that is not easy to do in an altercation - which, of course, why you have to train it if you want any chance of it working at all - even if that chance of success is less than 5%.
The scooping shoken happens 3 different ways in Sanseiryu depending on how you do the kata. Once off a turn into the verticle leaning elbow, once off a series of shokens, and once as the third in a series of dropped center techniques that include an opposing force strike and a downward sweep. So each time in the form it is a follow-up movement. Icing on the cake. If you capture their leg you can capture their balance.
So there are two levels there:
basic is balance displacement
not basic which includes the cavity seize on the ankle and vital point strike to the base of the foot.
AND I'm still very much on the learning curve for this one - all thoughts are welcome.
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I don't believe the Shoken or the Nukite are *real* techniques. I believe they are symbolic by design and are actually neutral positions for other techniques.
I took a Small Circle Juijitsu seminar with Leon Jay (wally jays son) and noticed that his technique for applying locks looked like a shoken only open. The thumb and forefinger pointed out and the middle finger pointed in at 90 degrees with respect to the thumb and forefinger. The thumb and forefinger applied the technique while the middle finger guiding the technique into the proper rotation. I felt like I was on to something but I was quickly sqaushed by my dojo mates for doing a non-uechi thing. I wish I knew then what I knew now, I really think I would have figured out the shoken thing.
I think you all are barking up the wrong tree with this punching with shokens thing... same thing with nukites...
I mean, look at konchin and sanseirui, there are the sliding steps with shokens... can the bankai for that be something as simple as sliding and punching with a shoken 3 times into the heart? We're talking about Uechi Ryu's most advanced kata! And if the shoken is so deadly, why is their 3 of them? Could it be that the framer of the kata had the same lack of confidence in that technique that i do? It must be so, if it's actually a striking technique.
I took a Small Circle Juijitsu seminar with Leon Jay (wally jays son) and noticed that his technique for applying locks looked like a shoken only open. The thumb and forefinger pointed out and the middle finger pointed in at 90 degrees with respect to the thumb and forefinger. The thumb and forefinger applied the technique while the middle finger guiding the technique into the proper rotation. I felt like I was on to something but I was quickly sqaushed by my dojo mates for doing a non-uechi thing. I wish I knew then what I knew now, I really think I would have figured out the shoken thing.
I think you all are barking up the wrong tree with this punching with shokens thing... same thing with nukites...
I mean, look at konchin and sanseirui, there are the sliding steps with shokens... can the bankai for that be something as simple as sliding and punching with a shoken 3 times into the heart? We're talking about Uechi Ryu's most advanced kata! And if the shoken is so deadly, why is their 3 of them? Could it be that the framer of the kata had the same lack of confidence in that technique that i do? It must be so, if it's actually a striking technique.
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Tony I sort of agree. I'm comfortable with the concept of hitting with these hand positions. But I also try not to get to hung up on thinking this part of the kata must be application # 2341B.
I too see small circle applications in shokens. My students get kind of pissed when I demonstrate them.
I see the shoken as a grabbing twisting tear on the retreat as well.
Too much focus is paid to the entry, everyone sees strikes. So much more is posible in the retreats and turns, but it is largely ignored.
I see the double shoken as a choke as a huge neck pain compliance thingie. It works well!
Any movement with a body part in a shoken will cause some interesting responses.
Remember what Rick says about folks with all the answers...run!. But you have already distanced yourself from those with all the answers, your now free to explore your own. JMO but I think thats how it should be.
I too see small circle applications in shokens. My students get kind of pissed when I demonstrate them.
I see the shoken as a grabbing twisting tear on the retreat as well. Too much focus is paid to the entry, everyone sees strikes. So much more is posible in the retreats and turns, but it is largely ignored.
I see the double shoken as a choke as a huge neck pain compliance thingie. It works well!
Any movement with a body part in a shoken will cause some interesting responses.
Remember what Rick says about folks with all the answers...run!. But you have already distanced yourself from those with all the answers, your now free to explore your own. JMO but I think thats how it should be.
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Rick Wilson
Hey folks:
I don’t teach the shoken to the bottom of the foot for that move but the day after I taught that pressure point to a student he used it twice to escape a leg lock when on the ground.
Of course the use of it when a person is wearing a shoe is very questionable. And not too many beaches open in Canada in January. But then there are those Polar Bear clubs.
I think there are many uses for the shoken (see the great posts above) and striking is defiantly one of them. When trained properly it is effective.
For example of other uses, Michael DePasquale Sr. trained in a system using the thumb knuckle and tip of the thumb for driving and ripping strikes particularly across and into the throat. I find many of the circling shoken movements in the Kata fit that style of approach very well.
(I did not learn that system I only saw a glimpse of it in a seminar – me and about 30 other people.)
I don’t teach the shoken to the bottom of the foot for that move but the day after I taught that pressure point to a student he used it twice to escape a leg lock when on the ground.
Of course the use of it when a person is wearing a shoe is very questionable. And not too many beaches open in Canada in January. But then there are those Polar Bear clubs.
I think there are many uses for the shoken (see the great posts above) and striking is defiantly one of them. When trained properly it is effective.
For example of other uses, Michael DePasquale Sr. trained in a system using the thumb knuckle and tip of the thumb for driving and ripping strikes particularly across and into the throat. I find many of the circling shoken movements in the Kata fit that style of approach very well.
(I did not learn that system I only saw a glimpse of it in a seminar – me and about 30 other people.)
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That is because most people, in general are not fighters. They won't be struck by the "deja vu" angel because they have no experience fighting. They rely soley on what Sensei gives them and most of the time it's mumbo-jumbo.uglyelk wrote:Too much focus is paid to the entry, everyone sees strikes. So much more is posible in the retreats and turns, but it is largely ignored.
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Mark Weitz
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The kata, depending on who is teaching and interpreting, can be misleading if it is taught too literally. I understand the shoken to the foot but given everybody wears shoes it's completely inaccessible as a target.
I don't fully understand why the two arm movements, the downward block and scoop, are "shokenized". It may partly be a stylistic thing, something I've noticed in southern Mantis systems. I tried the kata with seiken fists and it's a bit awkward, stylistically for presentation, to enter with a flat fist then pull into shoken.
That being said there are many great techniques with the shokens, either as cavity/pressure point strikes or pain compliance. I've mentioned one of my old instructors, Nanoy many times (I studied Kali with him) and he had great grabs/compliance techniques. One such technique against a single or double lapel grab where he ignored the aggressors grab altogether and proceeded to grab the upper lip and pull his hand tightly into a shoken with the protruding knuckle driving into the point just under the nose.
It didn't seem to matter how large the person was; everybody ended up flailing their arms, initially, and screaming for the "demonstration" to end. Also works really well against the side of the head as a hair grab pulling into a shoken with the knuckle driving into the side of the head, and if there's no hair the ear will do as the knuckle will fit and push into the concave point just behind the ear. Practice slowly, but they work really well.
The scooping technique is a no-brainer for catching and throwing the leg, perhaps throwing in a couple of shokens to exposed targets if they present themselves. A great technique and a kata in itself.
Mark
I don't fully understand why the two arm movements, the downward block and scoop, are "shokenized". It may partly be a stylistic thing, something I've noticed in southern Mantis systems. I tried the kata with seiken fists and it's a bit awkward, stylistically for presentation, to enter with a flat fist then pull into shoken.
That being said there are many great techniques with the shokens, either as cavity/pressure point strikes or pain compliance. I've mentioned one of my old instructors, Nanoy many times (I studied Kali with him) and he had great grabs/compliance techniques. One such technique against a single or double lapel grab where he ignored the aggressors grab altogether and proceeded to grab the upper lip and pull his hand tightly into a shoken with the protruding knuckle driving into the point just under the nose.
It didn't seem to matter how large the person was; everybody ended up flailing their arms, initially, and screaming for the "demonstration" to end. Also works really well against the side of the head as a hair grab pulling into a shoken with the knuckle driving into the side of the head, and if there's no hair the ear will do as the knuckle will fit and push into the concave point just behind the ear. Practice slowly, but they work really well.The scooping technique is a no-brainer for catching and throwing the leg, perhaps throwing in a couple of shokens to exposed targets if they present themselves. A great technique and a kata in itself.
Mark
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Dana Sheets
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Dana, back to what you where saying about body mechanics, and the way you practice kata, you don't mind exagerating your body movement because you know that over time you'll tighten those moves up to the point where they will be unseen and subtle. Same goes for advanced kata, as you progress in the kata all your gross motor movements should evolve into fine motor skills and you master your karate. Throwing a leg and punching a foot is a Seisan level technique, it's just that simple. there is nothing subtle about it. The Bankai itself is requires only gross motor skills which leads me to believe that the current bankai, as it is practiced is incorrect.
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Dana Sheets
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You know I'm not entirely sure that "advanced" and "basic" really apply to the idea of training the original 3 forms.
To me there are layers in each form. For Sanchin the personal journey is just endless. You can always do something better.
Seisan and Sanseiryu are, to me, different flavors of fighting. I think it can be a long road to master "hard" techniques and a long road to master "soft" techniques. I don't think of one being easier than the other. What I think is hard is going back and forth between hard and soft and doing it at the right time.
So fine motor hard (hitting a specific place) vs fine motor soft (leading the attacker into a balance displacment/joint twisting stuff) are both difficult. But combining those two things is, to me, the hardest.
To me there are layers in each form. For Sanchin the personal journey is just endless. You can always do something better.
Seisan and Sanseiryu are, to me, different flavors of fighting. I think it can be a long road to master "hard" techniques and a long road to master "soft" techniques. I don't think of one being easier than the other. What I think is hard is going back and forth between hard and soft and doing it at the right time.
So fine motor hard (hitting a specific place) vs fine motor soft (leading the attacker into a balance displacment/joint twisting stuff) are both difficult. But combining those two things is, to me, the hardest.
Last edited by Dana Sheets on Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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