Fighting?
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benzocaine
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:20 pm
- Location: St. Thomas
"The old masters who invented and passed on the style of combat to us didn't overlook anything in my opinion."
I hear what you're saying. I'm pretty impressed with the "old masters". That's why I'm studying Karate. But it doesn't seem unreasonable to say that no one man / woman / dojo / style has all the answers without overlooking a single possibility. Hell, you could study all your life and not know everything about martial arts. I asked one of my senior instructors to show me how to kick and he replied by the time I figured it out I'd be too old to do it.
Then we spent the class kicking. Not too far from where I'm typing this post there's a boxing gym with some hard hitting pros, right near that is the dojo I go to (IOK), over in Watertown there's the BJJ school Kenny Florian goes to... I could keep going. My point is there's a lot of really talented lines of thinking and to say that someone hasn't overlooked anything seems almost religious and not practical.
Just a thought.
I hear what you're saying. I'm pretty impressed with the "old masters". That's why I'm studying Karate. But it doesn't seem unreasonable to say that no one man / woman / dojo / style has all the answers without overlooking a single possibility. Hell, you could study all your life and not know everything about martial arts. I asked one of my senior instructors to show me how to kick and he replied by the time I figured it out I'd be too old to do it.
Then we spent the class kicking. Not too far from where I'm typing this post there's a boxing gym with some hard hitting pros, right near that is the dojo I go to (IOK), over in Watertown there's the BJJ school Kenny Florian goes to... I could keep going. My point is there's a lot of really talented lines of thinking and to say that someone hasn't overlooked anything seems almost religious and not practical.Just a thought.
You probably all know more about Karate than I do. I'm just thinking out loud...
"Can you really learn and benefit from something if you question the very methods you're supposed to be learning?"
Yes. I constantly ask questions. It's a good way to get a rest and catch your breath.
Clear detailed explanations and demonstrations of ability (kata, sparring, etc) are the basis of my faith in my instructors. The questioning is not a threat, more curiosity.
Is it just a cultural thing?
"Can you really learn and benefit from something if you question the very methods you're supposed to be learning?"
Yes. I constantly ask questions. It's a good way to get a rest and catch your breath.
Clear detailed explanations and demonstrations of ability (kata, sparring, etc) are the basis of my faith in my instructors. The questioning is not a threat, more curiosity.Is it just a cultural thing?
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Rick Wilson
Hey Jeff if that’s your Uechi then go for it!!!
I didn’t read John’s description of breathing so I have no comment on it, but to say that is how every Okinawan breaths…well...how many have you worked with? Too much of a blanket statement I think.
As for the Tsst, I don’t do it but when it is done for compression then it has a reason that I can understand. As for Tsst and Okinawa? I know a person who trained in Okinawa for years and claims never to have heard the Tsst until he saw NA Uechi, so go figure.
Has fighting changed?
Dana gave some good info.
As for the “original master’s version of Uechi”:
What about the Wakayama film? That is very different Uechi than what we see and it was in an original Uechi dojo? How do we explain that?
Is that the true way?
Or did that Uechi go through some kind of different evolution in that dojo?
To say we are doing it the way the masters who perfected it on the battlefield did is pushing it.
Before you brush off my comments let me make it very clear that I have no idea how the masters did it.
I have no idea how Uechi Kanbun Sensei did Uechi.
Those who saw him will have what they recall from their time training and through the filters they had at the time they trained but I have no idea.
And frankly only those who trained directly with him would have any idea, other than that we are subject to change. For the better for the worse – who knows?
I have seen some old tape of Uechi Kata at a demo and GUESS WHAT?
Not one of the practitioners performed Kata in the same manner.
So which one was the one true way? Who cares? Which ones did I like and want to adapt from and which ones didn’t I like?
My belief is that once the battlefield is gone then the check and balance is much harder to keep things on the right path.
But Jeff you absolutely should train your Uechi as feels comfortable to you.
But to claim you are training it just as the masters of old – well…hey maybe you are and may be none of us are even close.
But why not throw on some HIGHGEAR and have someone try and take your head off – if it is the master’s Uechi from the battle field then it should work. And it is fun too. And if it works and is NOT the Uechi of the master’s – HELL IT WORKS! GOOD ENOUGH!
In the end it is YOUR Uechi. What we post here is only that – our Uechi.
The discussion should centre around the mechanics etc of our training and how what we train relates to that master’s battlefield.
But sorry I don’t buy into anyone having the Uechi of the old master’s.
I am not saying that there isn’t great Uechi around and I will not even discount that there might be some of that old stuff but I would bet it has changed somewhat somehow.
Pick who you believe you can learn and who cares where they come from.
Okinawans are people there will be good Uechika and bad Uechika among them.
You mentioned Higa Sensei. I have only seen tape of some of his fights but he is an impressive fighter with amazing sense of distance and timing. Same with Ric Martin for that matter.
Starting to ramble so time to bail.
(And the original battlefield Uechi came from China, but let’s not let that confuse things. )
I didn’t read John’s description of breathing so I have no comment on it, but to say that is how every Okinawan breaths…well...how many have you worked with? Too much of a blanket statement I think.
As for the Tsst, I don’t do it but when it is done for compression then it has a reason that I can understand. As for Tsst and Okinawa? I know a person who trained in Okinawa for years and claims never to have heard the Tsst until he saw NA Uechi, so go figure.
Has fighting changed?
Dana gave some good info.
As for the “original master’s version of Uechi”:
What about the Wakayama film? That is very different Uechi than what we see and it was in an original Uechi dojo? How do we explain that?
Is that the true way?
Or did that Uechi go through some kind of different evolution in that dojo?
To say we are doing it the way the masters who perfected it on the battlefield did is pushing it.
Before you brush off my comments let me make it very clear that I have no idea how the masters did it.
I have no idea how Uechi Kanbun Sensei did Uechi.
Those who saw him will have what they recall from their time training and through the filters they had at the time they trained but I have no idea.
And frankly only those who trained directly with him would have any idea, other than that we are subject to change. For the better for the worse – who knows?
I have seen some old tape of Uechi Kata at a demo and GUESS WHAT?
Not one of the practitioners performed Kata in the same manner.
So which one was the one true way? Who cares? Which ones did I like and want to adapt from and which ones didn’t I like?
My belief is that once the battlefield is gone then the check and balance is much harder to keep things on the right path.
But Jeff you absolutely should train your Uechi as feels comfortable to you.
But to claim you are training it just as the masters of old – well…hey maybe you are and may be none of us are even close.
But why not throw on some HIGHGEAR and have someone try and take your head off – if it is the master’s Uechi from the battle field then it should work. And it is fun too. And if it works and is NOT the Uechi of the master’s – HELL IT WORKS! GOOD ENOUGH!
In the end it is YOUR Uechi. What we post here is only that – our Uechi.
The discussion should centre around the mechanics etc of our training and how what we train relates to that master’s battlefield.
But sorry I don’t buy into anyone having the Uechi of the old master’s.
I am not saying that there isn’t great Uechi around and I will not even discount that there might be some of that old stuff but I would bet it has changed somewhat somehow.
Pick who you believe you can learn and who cares where they come from.
Okinawans are people there will be good Uechika and bad Uechika among them.
You mentioned Higa Sensei. I have only seen tape of some of his fights but he is an impressive fighter with amazing sense of distance and timing. Same with Ric Martin for that matter.
Starting to ramble so time to bail.
(And the original battlefield Uechi came from China, but let’s not let that confuse things.
)-- later edit. i was wondering around the forums and saw this old post of mine. ugh. my mouth runs faster than my brain. deleted some stuff. interesting thread though...
Last edited by eric235u on Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Well the only tournament I entered was hard for me because I wasn't allowed to grab. I got two warnings for sealing my opponents guard against their body and then making contact...which nullified my point. 
However you really do have to just get in there and throw stuff. And from all angles for your partner's benefits. Work your way around the clock. Come from straight down on top of their heads, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, etc. See what angles you can attack with arms and with legs. Ask your partners to do the same. Karate shouldn't be about being really good at receiving only a few kinds of attacks. Karate should be about receiving any kind of attack and specializing in really good and efficient responses to whatever comes.
(I say specializing because as a shorter woman I'm not going to focus on perfecting head kicks to people standing that are 6' tall. So I need to pick and choose a bit, I'll train it all but spend a little more time where I can pick up higher percentages of success.)
However you really do have to just get in there and throw stuff. And from all angles for your partner's benefits. Work your way around the clock. Come from straight down on top of their heads, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, etc. See what angles you can attack with arms and with legs. Ask your partners to do the same. Karate shouldn't be about being really good at receiving only a few kinds of attacks. Karate should be about receiving any kind of attack and specializing in really good and efficient responses to whatever comes.
(I say specializing because as a shorter woman I'm not going to focus on perfecting head kicks to people standing that are 6' tall. So I need to pick and choose a bit, I'll train it all but spend a little more time where I can pick up higher percentages of success.)
Rick,
I normally don't write much on here, but I thought your last post was right on. Thanks for saving me all that writing time. You said exactly what I wanted to say. LOL
If you talk to Rob Finalyson tell him I said hi. I can't find his email address anywhere. If you've got it that would be great. If not, I'll call the Blauer Tactical office.
Eric235U-
"The ivory tower needs the battlefield or a bunch of voodoo ends up pretending to be truth." You hit the nail on the head.
If you are looking to do some more Kumite, you are more than welcome to come by our dojo. We are about 45 min. from you in Seabrook, NH. If you are interested in sport, "full contact", grappling etc. our door is always open. Our dojo has been very successful at various types of tournaments. We do a lot of Kumite!
I normally don't write much on here, but I thought your last post was right on. Thanks for saving me all that writing time. You said exactly what I wanted to say. LOL
If you talk to Rob Finalyson tell him I said hi. I can't find his email address anywhere. If you've got it that would be great. If not, I'll call the Blauer Tactical office.
Eric235U-
"The ivory tower needs the battlefield or a bunch of voodoo ends up pretending to be truth." You hit the nail on the head.
If you are looking to do some more Kumite, you are more than welcome to come by our dojo. We are about 45 min. from you in Seabrook, NH. If you are interested in sport, "full contact", grappling etc. our door is always open. Our dojo has been very successful at various types of tournaments. We do a lot of Kumite!
Shugyo Training Camp
www.atlantickarate.com
www.atlantickarate.com
"Well the only tournament I entered was hard for me because I wasn't allowed to grab."
I wonder how effective the control hand is. I like the idea. But when the sh*t's going down I revert to a very basic boxing type defense. I'm considering entering a San Da tourney this December in NJ just for giggles and while people are allowed to do the control, I don't think it's done much... Would you have won if you didn't grab? One fellow I know says we don't do well because of our grabbing. Well why not stop grabbing and strike? You knew the rules prior to entering it. It's just a game. I'm not picking on you. Hell, I don't know you and you could probably kick my butt!!! It's just that I've heard others use the same "excuse" and I doubt it's validy. Maybe not in your particular case, but I've heard this line before.
I wonder how effective the control hand is. I like the idea. But when the sh*t's going down I revert to a very basic boxing type defense. I'm considering entering a San Da tourney this December in NJ just for giggles and while people are allowed to do the control, I don't think it's done much... Would you have won if you didn't grab? One fellow I know says we don't do well because of our grabbing. Well why not stop grabbing and strike? You knew the rules prior to entering it. It's just a game. I'm not picking on you. Hell, I don't know you and you could probably kick my butt!!! It's just that I've heard others use the same "excuse" and I doubt it's validy. Maybe not in your particular case, but I've heard this line before.
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
This was a one-point single contact tourney. I actually had no idea of the rule before I started fighting. I did a pressure grab and got her guard out of the way and hit her three times. They called me off for illegal contact. I couldn't figure out what that was.
The second time I could hear the yells from the stands that "grabbing's not allowed", "she's cheating, she's grabbing" etc. So I was just supposed to dance around and tag her. Uh...OK.
I had already won my division and this was the championship round. Nobody complained about grabbing in my first division so I was surprised by the change in rules.
Controlling matters for force continuum. You don't want to be like a solider who only knows how to shoot a rifle, stab someone with the bayonette, or hit them with the butt of the stock. You need a broader array of skills.
Besides - why hit them when if you can control their balance you can let them wall hit them instead?. Walls hit harder than I do.
It's about having options.
The second time I could hear the yells from the stands that "grabbing's not allowed", "she's cheating, she's grabbing" etc. So I was just supposed to dance around and tag her. Uh...OK.
I had already won my division and this was the championship round. Nobody complained about grabbing in my first division so I was surprised by the change in rules.
Controlling matters for force continuum. You don't want to be like a solider who only knows how to shoot a rifle, stab someone with the bayonette, or hit them with the butt of the stock. You need a broader array of skills.
Besides - why hit them when if you can control their balance you can let them wall hit them instead?. Walls hit harder than I do.
It's about having options.
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Stryke
Absolutely Dana , grabbing does work , wether it`s an arm , a jacket or going further into a clinch etc , grapple .....Controlling matters for force continuum. You don't want to be like a solider who only knows how to shoot a rifle, stab someone with the bayonette, or hit them with the butt of the stock. You need a broader array of skills.
Also the fat is we have to prepare for being grabbed , how do we learn to deal with it if we dont allow it ? .
different grabs are basic HAPV , understanding them using them and responding to them are essential in the overall picture .
As for tournaments and rules and refs , well it`s a tough one , Ive been dq`ed for grabbing , but it`s all about practicing one aspect of fighting , it`s good experience , just not a real fight .
