Breathing Aside From Jeff's Thread

A place to share ideas, concerns, questions, and thoughts about women and the martial arts.

Moderator: Available

Guest

Post by Guest »

Mills75 wrote:have always breathed also by breathing after the strike is completed and not during the strike.
Jeff, no offense man but when you start pushing the limits of your endurance, you will find that Uechi breathing as it's taught by okinawans is faulty.

Try this exercise, grab a jump rope, set a timer for 3 minutes and just jump over it doing Uechi breathing. Watch how far you get.

Right now, i'm trying to finish a 3rd round in boxing and still haven't gotten that far. My endurance is a huge inhibiting factor. I'm doing everything I can, running, intervals on the bag, I even QUIT SMOKING CIGARS!!!! I have to keep pushing myself to complete my short term goal (that damn 3rd round!!!!!!). There is NO WAY I would ever get to a 2nd round, much less a 3rd or a 4th by breathing the "uechi" way! NO WAY!!!!!!

Jeff man.. do your rounds! Tell Sensei you want to spar! 3 minute rounds!!!! Push yourself until you puke!
User avatar
Van Canna
Posts: 57244
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Post by Van Canna »

Most of other karate styles don’t breathe the Uechi way…tssting after the strike…

Old style Uechi [Kanbun] did not breathe this way according to Toyama sensei.

Synchronizing breathing with movement under stress and under a huge adrenaline dump is critical and serious business.

If you really want to learn something about breathing the ‘modern way’ having undergone very specialized study, then buy the DVD ‘PRASARA’ by coach Scott Sonnon, former USA National martial arts team coach and International champion.

A UNIQUE SYSTEM of resyncing breath to movement and structure_ the culmination of 15 years of study and travel around the globe, researching and experimenting with the physical disciplines of many cultures and traditions.

When you fight for survival, it is a pipe dream that you will conquer your enemy/enemies without mussing your hair.

This means sustained and demanding effort under havoc and adrenalized chaos.

And 'puke' is a good word by tony. Puke can also be caused by adrealine dump.

Tony’s example of sparring and rope skipping or even doing a couple minutes rounds against a heavy bag will show you the limitations of the so-called ‘Uechi breathing’_ Try Uechi breathing under a huge adrenaline dump_ syncope will be your reward.

Buy ‘Prasara’ and see _
Van
Guest

Post by Guest »

Even if your Sensei doesn't want you to spar (because white belts tend to hurt people.. hah hah), ask him to hold a kicking shield and you keep him at bay for 3 minutes. Take a "breather" and then go another 3 minutes. You'll soon see that Air is your best friend... hah hah.. Right Van????

tsst.. tsst... :roll:
User avatar
Dana Sheets
Posts: 2715
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am

Post by Dana Sheets »

Ok just wanted to see how many of you think in your opinion fighting has changed? It seems to me that a lot of people feel that traditional martial arts need to be updated and modernized but my question is why? Did a man fighting another man really change or something and nobody sent me the memo lol?

...so why is it that you find so much change and deviation and non trust when it comes to the traditional arts?

Why does breathing and so on and so forth become a question to be put under a microscope when the people who invented these arts invented them in times of struggle and of war. They tested them under real fire and under the real stress of life struggles and not on a padded mat in an arena in front of parents for trophies and medals.

Can you really learn and benefit from something if you question the very methods you're supposed to be learning?
-Has fighting tradition changed?
For one on one empty handed combat, no. However the legal environment and society have changed quite a bit. There are many threads in the archives on these topics.

-Why is there change? Because humans evolve their understanding over time. As Newton said "If I am able to see further it is only because I have stood on the shoulders of giants." At a certain point in training trust is needed. But after the fundamentals are developed each student must seek their own understanding. "Seek not to be like your teachers, seek what you teachers sought."

-Why do things like breathing get put under a microscope? Because our understanding of human physiology has grown extensively in past two hundred years. It would be an injustice to ignore new knowledge just because it isn't old knowledge. At the end of the day we may come full circle in our understanding, but if we do it will be because we understand both the traidition and the function based on what we have learned.

-Can we really learn if we question? Socrates admonished us to question everything all the time. Are you really learning if you are only following blindly? Faith and trust - yes - to a point. Then you must own your training and not train because so and so said so, but because you have a full understanding.

What we're talking about here is called in Japanese traditions Shuhari. Shu, ha, ri.
Imitation, Separation, Reunification.

http://judo1.net/ju01004.htm

The author in the above article finishes with separation. And I disagree. If knowledge is a tree - an the outermost branches and leaves the newest knowledge then I firmly believe that with complete understanding you do not only embrace the small leaves and branches at the edge. With full understanding you also embrace the trunk, the heartwood, the roots, and the earth below.

To honor our teachers we start by sitting at their feet and we should end by standing on their shoulders.
Last edited by Dana Sheets on Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
gmattson
Site Admin
Posts: 6070
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
Location: Lake Mary, Florida
Contact:

A small point..

Post by gmattson »

I'm not attempting to tell anyone they are right or wrong, only to correct a misconception some people have pertaining to the so called "Uechi breathing".

In terms of "volume" of air being exchanged, there is no difference between methods. Much of the misconceptions occur when people try to say that "Uechi breathing" consists of making a little noise (tsss) instead of the actual breathing that takes place. (makes for more lively discussion.)

Regarding which method is more effective for other reasons, I suggest that students experiment to make sure whatever they are doing makes sense when performing under stress and during an extended and full out workout as was suggested by Tony and Van.

However, please keep in mind that overall physical conditioning plays a very important role in the outcome.
(Inappropriate comment removed... Sorry Tony)

No question many Uechi teachers don't understand Uechi breathing and focus more on the ritual of breathing than the actual breathing. Of course, I've seen the same with different methods of breathing as well.

The solution is to keep an open mind, don't belittle what you don't understand and remember that only you can know if something is right for you.
Last edited by gmattson on Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"
User avatar
Van Canna
Posts: 57244
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Post by Van Canna »

George good points_ however some clarifications_
In terms of "volume" of air being exchanged, there is no difference between methods. Much of the misconceptions occur when people try to say that "Uechi breathing" consists of making a little noise (tsss) instead of the actual breathing that takes place. (makes for more lively discussion.)
Very true. But NOT exhaling or INHALING with effort/strike characterizes ‘Uechi breathing’.

This is what teachers push on students and we see lots of negative results under stress/under test conditions as you and I have seen, as you and I have seen people turn red or purple.

When teachers see someone exhale with a strike, they go into cardiac arrest as Tony has explained.

Regarding what is more effective for them, true it is up to the student to experiment, but most don’t being brainwashed into ‘Uechi Breathing’ from infancy.

Also there is a ton of evidence that exhaling with the strike or effort, is the method used by most other karate styles, by all fighters in the ring, by all competitive athletes the world over.
However, please keep in mind that overall physical conditioning plays a very important role in the outcome. Tony uses Van's breathing method and can't get through a couple of rounds of boxing. Obviously we can't blame the breathing method for this. . . (Unless, of course, Tony was using "Uechi breathing"! )
Ha..Very funny George. And it is not ‘Van’s breathing’ method George. It is a breathing method that Van adopted from research specialists, and from his experience and teachings in competitive sports before he got to Uechi.
The solution is to keep an open mind, don't belittle what you don't understand and remember that only you can know if something is right for you.
Very true.

Does this refer to the ‘enlightened Uechi group’ that keeps busting Tony’s balls about his breathing preference? If so, you are correct. But watch it_ the bitching email is coming_
Van
User avatar
Van Canna
Posts: 57244
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Of interest

Post by Van Canna »

Human kinetics

From _
Achieving and Maintaining Focus*
From Freestyle Sparring by Woo Jung, Jennifer Lawler

Martial artists should be aware of their breathing at all times, especially when performing techniques. Always breathe out while striking with the technique. This helps add focus and power to each technique. Then, inhale when returning to the starting position. Often, when you concentrate on exhaling as you strike, inhaling follows naturally. Don’t breathe too rapidly or you’ll hyperventilate.

As you become more comfortable with these breathing techniques, you will notice improved endurance during your workouts.
~~
Van
Guest

Re: A small point..

Post by Guest »

gmattson wrote:very important role in the outcome. Tony uses Van's breathing method and can't get through a couple of rounds of boxing. Obviously we can't blame the breathing method for this. . . (Unless, of course, Tony was using "Uechi breathing"! :))
ah.. the ol' switcherooo!

I was up too 5 rounds of hard sparring before I took a 2 year hiatus from training. I have only been back training for 3 months George. I am way WAY out of shape. I will be back to going 5 rounds by this time next year, that I can promise, perhaps even more, while the 'tsstsr'z will be still turning blue in the face NOT BREATHING.
Guest

Post by Guest »

You know, the more I read that statement George, the more unfair it sounds to me. First off, a couple rounds of boxing is not a couple rounds of lolly-gagging... for me, it's hard work, very hard. A couple weeks ago, I was very excited because I was going to finish a 3rd round and got knocked out with 30 seconds left. I don't know if it is the moon phase, or my stress level with school, or work, but I haven't been able to get that energy level back again. I'm back down to 2 rounds and it's not because of my breathing. Now, I could push myself really REALLY hard and probably reach that goal, but then I run the risk of giving myself a heart attack, because lets face it, i'm not spring chicken anymore... i'll be 40 years old in December, and there is not alot of guys my age, in my physical condition, trying this sport on for size. now, i'm telling everyone now, controlled breathing, through the nose, out the mouth, in sync with beethovens 5th, and in accordance with the great okinawan gods, it's bull schit. There is only one way to breathe when you are pushing yourself at that level, in REALLY DEEP and OUT REALLY DEEP! End of story!

Also, lets not forget how my two year hiatus began.... it started when a group of Uechi Ryu elitists saw fit to kick me off my "High Horse".
User avatar
gmattson
Site Admin
Posts: 6070
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
Location: Lake Mary, Florida
Contact:

Tony..

Post by gmattson »

I was only quoting you while making the same point you are... You must be in good condition when performing a gruelling activity. The point being that breathing is important, but just one component in the overall formula for getting through 5 rounds.
GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"
Guest

Post by Guest »

Too me it sounded like... "two rounds? hah! loser....."
User avatar
gmattson
Site Admin
Posts: 6070
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
Location: Lake Mary, Florida
Contact:

Come on Tony...

Post by gmattson »

You know me better than that...

Next time you visit, bring a heavy bag... We'll do some rounds, punching and kicking. Not the same thing as getting battered by an opponent, but it should be a good aerobic exercise and you can check "my" uechi breathing. :)

BTW Tony, I edited out that inappropriate comment.
GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"
Guest

Post by Guest »

It just read funny.. my instincts told me that you would not write a defeatist statement like that , which is why I was shocked. I guess it was the way you wrote "vans breathing.... a couple round of boxing"...

I'll come back up in a few weeks, i'll bring my kicking sheild, focus mitts and some other stuff.. :)
User avatar
Van Canna
Posts: 57244
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Post by Van Canna »

The point being that breathing is important, but just one component in the overall formula for getting through 5 rounds.
Very true.But if this one component is dysfunctional the rest of the components remain crouched at ringside.
Van
User avatar
gmattson
Site Admin
Posts: 6070
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
Location: Lake Mary, Florida
Contact:

No question about that Van...

Post by gmattson »

Its just a problem with me when someone targets a specific method, when it isn't the method that is at fault.... Its the way (any method) is taught and how the student understands and practices what was taught.

When we make general statements, ("You Uechi people") we target everyone in that community. Probably not what was inteneded, but that is the perception.

People are very sensitive. (I just went through an episode where fast typing projected a totally unintended result)
GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"
Post Reply

Return to “Women and the Martial Arts”