Are men scared of a strong woman?

[jorvik]

I think that you have to first start with the premise that men and women are equal but different and then go from there.
I don't like Alpha males either.....but I see them as inferior because all they really focus on is money or power or prestige, and how the world percieves them. They are incapable of anything but living in other people's perceptions .shadow people who can only enjoy because they think that they have "Achieved".was DaVinci an Alpha male or aristotle or Shakespeare........what you we are talking about is the Vulgar and self seeking, I never liked it in males and I don't like it in females either...I mean fairs fair, what's good for the goose is good for the Gander

[Dana Sheets]

Well said jovik,

See I really don't like it when a few loud-spoken or celebrity type folks are allowed to be looked at a someone who can give an opinion about their entire gender. That is just such foolishness.

There are gender differences. Duh.

Is one gender superior to the other? Nope.

Are there individuals with significant character flaws of each gender. Yep.

It is sort of like discussing tai chi vs uechi-ryu. You can't say which is a better style because you have to look at the individuals.

So same same for gender.

Men vs women...it simply doesn't work. There is too much to be said to say anything so simply.

[Akil Todd Harvey]

Are men scared of a strong woman?

Right...

All women are the same. We all think alike. In fact, any perceived differences between us are an illusion. We all speak telepathically to one another and secretly discuss how we are controlling the world and why all beings with two X chromosomes will always be superior to those hapless humans with just one X and one Y.

Indeed.

hmph.

And indeed, the whole jist of the thread is that men can be treated collectively, that we are all the same, all act in the same manner, have the same weaknesses and taste in women, that we all think alike, that we all have the same violent tendencies, and that we are all afraid or intimidated by strong independent women that would preclude ALL men from wanting to have these women for mates.....lol

As if we all got together and decided that we wouldnt as a group date or mate with strong alpha female women..........big conspriacy and lots of fear on the part of men???????? We have no rights to choose our own mates and their preferred characteristics????????

thanks Dana, you are so right, we shouldnt be treated like we are all the same......i guess you are starting to get my point (and you are proving my pints for me, too). thanks

men, real men (not stereotypical men-and that isall feminists know is stereotypical men since they treat us all collectively; collective guilt and collective shame are their modus operandi), are not afraid to admit that we are not world's in and of ourselves, that we depend on others for many things....we depend on each others as friends for many things (interdependence) and we depend on society for certain thigns (interdependence), and that we depend on our mates (men and women, God forbid) in a manner that resembles a form of interdependence, God forbid........

Dependence is most often described as a one way street with no reverse direction.........

And although the feminsists will get all excited about the money, financial, aspect of interdependence, most of us are big enough to see that interdependence goes beyond the financial.....

Men and women who are in healthy relationships depend on each other.

It is not a one way street. It is interdependence in which both partners depend on each other and BOTH benefit. Both make sacrifice and both get benefits in healthy relationships.

Now, you can go on pretending that the only form of dependence is a one way street kind of thing and that is fine, but you will never ever have anyone you can depend on in life, cuz all you will see is dependence.....you take and you do not give......or you give and you do not take. never ever is it a give and take situation according to the feminists, it is always a one way street (their way or the highway).

Have you no recognition that we all fall from grace sometimes?.....and who would you rather have help you out in your hour of need? a stranger sent by the government or a corporation to check your meds and financials or would you prefer a partner you have known for decades and been there for through thick and thin........

You save for your own rainy day and dont you ever count on me?????? is that what feminism encourages?????

People partner together cuz they KNOW they are dependent; if they were independent, they wouldnt partner up.......the whole definition of independence is that you need no one.......

Who would want any person for a partner that clearly needs no partner and wants no partner or wants a partner, but as soon as the going gets tough, they get going........

yeah, that makes a lot of sense.....

let me find a woman that wants me to be there for her and as soon as I might even appear to be neddy, wooooosh, she is gone.....

I have dated and married more than one alpha female....most cheated and left me and some just left me (after they got what they wanted-most left with a master's degree in this or that)......I know (My ex told me everything is my fault and every feminist on the planet will always tell you everything in the entire world is the fault of men (white one's) and that nothign wrong in the world has anythgin to do with women......lol...........fairy tales and make believe........

And when I was in high school we had this math teacher who could prove that 1 + 1 = 3 ..........

all you had to prove that 1 + 1 = 3 is stick you head in the sand, ignore any and all faulty logic and go on your way believing 1 + 1 = 3 and maybe if you worked hard enough, you could go around getting other people to believe that 1 + 1 = 3

let me tell ya, there are a hell of a lot of people in this world that I have foudn that think that 1 + 1 = 3.......

I met a woman who bragged to me that she beat her ex (that is, she proudly admitted to causing domestic abuse on a man), and i have read posts where men on this forum have (seemingly) bragged about their significant others ability to beat them (while they stand somehow patiently see nothing wrong with it or even find soem joy in it).......it might make you confident that she can protect herself while you are not there, but a few years from now, if you wake up with her pounding your nose into the pillow, making you bleed profusely for something you said in your sleep, dont be surprised if you ever wake up to the notion that there might just be somethign wrong here.........

[Akil Todd Harvey]

The following stereotype of men comes from the article that started this whole thread off.............

“Men’s expectation of a marriage is that they will be taken care of. The idea that men will care for and protect their partner is a great trick on women.

I am so glad that men are NOT all treated as a group and punished or blamed collectively(as if!!!!!). I feel so much better now.....

Says Dana the moderator...

Right...

All women are the same. We all think alike. In fact, any perceived differences between us are an illusion. We all speak telepathically to one another and secretly discuss how we are controlling the world and why all beings with two X chromosomes will always be superior to those hapless humans with just one X and one Y.

Indeed.

hmph.

Thanks again for making my point Dana, none of us wants to be judged as a group......now, back to women (and men) judging men, not individually, but as a group........

Even now if a man is living with a successful partner, the woman will be doing all of the child care and housework.”

And who will be taking out the garbage, fixing the dishwasher, performing vehicle maintenance, basically doing the jobs around a house that stereotypically fall on a man's shoulders.......Feminists who critique men negatively with regard to women's work in the home ignore the fact that men already have gender assigned tasks in homes. They just tend to involve greater risks and thus often require longer periods of rest afterwards (God forbid you rest after cleaning the leaves out of the gutter-hurry up and mow the lawn-if we are lucky, you will be in such a hurry to cut the grass that an accident will befall you and then we can belittle you for you inadequacy (and clumsiness).......

After my wife asked for her divorce, she called me one day cuz her car broke down......this massively independent woman (SHE thought she was) called WHO when her engine overheated?

Thus, feminists, wearing their self-imposed blinders (they took off their male imposed blinders and put in their place a nice shiny new pair of feminist blinders), see nothing wrong with complaining about men who dont do dishes.........

Choice is what feminism pretends to be.....but it is about choice for women and not for men.........

men cannot decide i would rather fix the car and get take out food (not according to feminists-that would be another example of men trying to control everything-which by the way, women would never do, right Dana?)

men are not allowed the luxury of choice of which house chores they prefer and let us hire folks (or machines) for the tasks that neither partner desires.......

there will be plenty of men who prefer to do with dishes (I do) and i prefer the laundry detail as well (my wife doesn’t do laundry as well as i do, but I still love her and have given up on trying to get her to be better at doing the laundry). Instead of forcing my wife to do things that she doesn’t like, I gasp, gave her a choice and she gave me choices..........that is why I love her and supported her to getting a master in instructional design and technology from the California state university at fullerton, 4.0 gpa out of 4.0 (and i am actively encouraging her to apply to the university of California at los angeles' phd program in education (applied animation in curriculum development, etc).....My wife was admitted to the program and then rejected by the university, and then admitted again, and then kicked out again........the first day of the semester, i witness her calling the registrar's office, trying to get herself back in the program......I tell her what she doesn’t want to hear, "you are potentially wasting your time on the phone"

I drove her to the university (partly to avoid the horrible southern cali traffic) and partly to free her to focus on getting in the university.......she got herself back in and got herself put on academic probation for a semester and graduated with a perfect score, 4.0.......and was asked to come teach there four months past graduation..........I wont pretend that it was me who did the work, and I expect that she remember who helped her get in even if she did the work by herself........Is it so much to ask to remember that she didn’t do it all by herself, that there were friends and others who helped, that we are al islands unto ourselves devoid of dependence on society or friends, etc........i coulda just been there for her as a shoulder to cry on like when ucla rejected her a few years ago, but i knew now wasn’t the time to cry, now was the time to try......failing our efforts, we could later cry together, but now was the time for action......my wife didn’t want me to tell her she hadn’t done her due diligence and that the university rejected her as such.....that is not what she wanted to hear.....but that is exactly what I told her.......i wanted to hold her and comfort her, but as far as i could tell, it was more beneficial to admit that the world is what the world is and to succeed, we bend our will to reality, not try to bend reality to our will (ego).....we must let go....do the best you can (due diligence) and if you don’t get in then we cry together.....we cried together alright.....we cried together in joy when she graduated and her mom and my mom and her dad were all here to share in our joy and accomplishment that we all had accomplished together, not all by ourselves.....she did the work and we all struggled together to pay the fees and tuition and to do everything else that needed to be done along the way, like regretfully inform friends (for years) that we were awfully busy and unable to visit or be sociable.........thus, we all sacrificed and we all gained......I am not intimidated that my wife makes way more than I (I do an unnecessary job in society-I am an electrician and a carpenter-among other things-and i get paid accordingly-crap-compared to difficulty-physical & mental- of the job, the physical risks (to life an limb) taken on a daily basis.............you let me give you the 480 volts of ac current that i had passing through me and you tell me i make too much........but she makes way more than I never taking real immediate physical risks against life and limb and tell me that is fair, hmmmmmmmm....ever wonder why an electrician costs so much????? Are you willing (or even able to their job for even a single day)

ever heard of fried electrician???????

not our of the realm of possibilities, almost happened to me more than once......277 volts of ac electricity hurts nearly as much as the 480 volts burst.....so we sit around wondering and worrying about why men make so much more than women and we find, on average, men are far more likely to take their lives into their hands (way more than women, statistically).....thus, women (and men who act more like them than their own gender), sit around in rooms with electricity and other hard worked for amenities wondering why men who do physical labor make so much (especially when combined with a technical education) more than those of us who never take physical risks or endure the hardships of the weather on a daily basis....crawl spaces, attics, confined spaces are where mostly men are injured and maimed and killed trying to provide the services that we value but cannot figure out why, for the life of us, they cost so much....we are convinced that we are being fleeced and thus we insist on estimates (and holding folks to their guestimates).....let me tell ya, it is one thing to know how to do a job, it is entirely another thing to predict how long a job will take before opening the wall in which that which needs to be fixed is located.....until the wall gets opened, you have no idea what is inside, thus you make guestimate.....who cares that you will guess high so as not to be put out of business by a low bid that you will be forced to honor even though you had no idea what was inside the wall....we all want certainty, we all want control, we all want order and to have the world unfold in expected ways, and we all need to wake up to the reality that life is not linear and logical......life doesnt work that way.....in the real world, weather is not predicable in large measure.....life involves chaos and lots of it and no amount of feminist posturing is going to change that.........life is unpredicable, so while i hope that we come up with an alternative to the fossil fuels that we are dimminishing, i als oplan for the possibility that the world we live in is unsustainable (at least as we configured it thus far)....


I dont mind taking out the garbage and she doesnt mind doing about 70-80% of the cooking to my 10-20% of coooking......I maintain both vehicles and I come in case she gets stranded (this is to be avoided through preventative work).....and she cooks for me and cooks some times in advance cuz it aint no surprise that we both get hungry sometimes just like it is no surprise to me that sometimes vehicles that have not been maintained can break down........

“I’ve always suspected a man’s ideal wife is his secretary ­ as we know how men love a woman they can dictate to. And now this his research backs up this theory.”

there are so many instances of stereotyping the male in this article that it makes me sick and there is no way I can respond to it all........

but, ironically, i think i can sum it all up as follows.......

how hypocritical can you get??????

these supposedly independent women cannot find a mate???????

I thought they were INDEPENDENT, so let em live on their own then, if they are actually as INDEPENDENT as they say they are, they wouldnt have a problem with being alone or they would, by the mere definition be independent except in their own minds (and of those who perpetuate such myths)..........

[-Metablade-]

Right...

All women are the same. We all think alike. In fact, any perceived differences between us are an illusion. We all speak telepathically to one another and secretly discuss how we are controlling the world and why all beings with two X chromosomes will always be superior to those hapless humans with just one X and one Y.

Indeed.

AHA!!!
I KNEW IT!

Hmm...This may indeed explain why I cannot seem to remember what I had for breakfast two days ago, yet
my wife can CLEARLY recall something I said 5 years ago, exactly the words I used, AND what I was wearing,
AND what day of the week it was, AND if the Lunar cycle
was waxing or waning..

...yes....It's all starting to fit together now......

[Akil Todd Harvey]

The double standard here admonishes guys as “Afraid to Commit” while the women are commended as being “Independent”.

Why not honor these men for rejecting the patriarchal system’s confines and as thus meeting women on their own terms?

I suggest, as in the past, that feminists are not interested in equality, but will readily uphold and encourage negative stereotypes of men while denying any parallel negative qualities attributable to women.

[Dana Sheets]

I don't have the time to respond to the myriad of issues raised in this discussion but I do think there's one salient idea missing from this broad critique of feminism.

It has to do with the idea that generally the first time you try to do something you don't get it exactly right. So the first time women attempted to live with equal respect, dignity, and autonomy as compared to the way men lived for thousands of years, some of the women got a bit overzealous. That's how you get a radical feminist.

But without that zeal would change have occurred? Is our society better off for that change having occurred? Might depend on who you ask. If you ask me my answer will be that our society is infinitely better off because it is now infinitely more open to recognizing the needs of individuals to develop their own choice and autonomy to the point where they can choose to partner or not with another person.

There is great power in choice as well as great risk. And there is often a great gap between doing what is easy and doing what is right. And we don't always make that leap. In our daily life or our relationships.

Neither feminists nor chauvinists will uniquely dictate the ways of the world. Which is good. We, as a collection of individuals will find a place somewhere in between. And that place will encompass a continuum. Some will choose to live life one way, some another.

And the beautiful thing is that while I may not agree with how everyone chooses to live - we have the freedom of choice.

Do feminists demonize men? Sometimes. Do men demonize women? Sometimes. Do women demonize themselves? Sometimes. Do men demonize other men. Sometimes.

Can we answer the 10,000 questions about gender, gender roles, and relationships with one thread on the internet? Nope. But at least some of the issues get to see the light of day and get discussed.

However once again Akil I need to finish by saying that your own zeal hurts your efforts to dialogue. You have raised far too many questions and issues for each one to be appropriately addressed. If you want to write a commentary then please find a place to do that. But this forum is meant for meaningful discussions. That means you've got to narrow your focus - and stick to it.

[Akil Todd Harvey]

I am a good housekeeper. Whenever I leave a man, I keep his house.

Zsa Zsa Gabor

[Akil Todd Harvey]

I don't have the time to respond to the myriad of issues raised in this discussion but I do think there's one salient idea missing from this broad critique of feminism.

My logic is not linear, and i guess my arguments will not be welcome here unless they are.....You have your approach to logic and mine is bad if it doesnt match yours?????

How about we handle the one issue that is important to this thread.......

The double standard here admonishes guys as “Afraid to Commit” while the women are commended as being “Independent” .

And dont worry, I am pretty confident you will do more than a little obfuscation, to avoid addressing the issue that is most important to men .........the double standards....things that when done by women are applauded, but when the same things are done by men, they become villified......dont worry, with your feminist blinders on, I doubt that you will see men being made to feel umwelcome (like me-being told in no uncertain terms-Go Away-to the other forum-not necessarily permanently or far away, but not on this forum).

Feminists raise issues and when men want to talk about them, you arent doing it right...........YOU frame the debate, feel free, but dont then tell me how to operate my logic system......My brain may not apply logic in the manner yours does, does that make it wrong???????? IS that maybe why men and women have so much difficulty getting along sometimes...;...I am gonna tell you what kind of logic and argument you are allowed to appply against me......seems a lot like you are changin the rules as we go....dont worry Dana, most of the time I avoid your forum like the plague because no issue can be raised here even when the issues are raised here........

However once again Akil I need to finish by saying that your own zeal hurts your efforts to dialogue. You have raised far too many questions and issues for each one to be appropriately addressed. If you want to write a commentary then please find a place to do that. But this forum is meant for meaningful discussions. That means you've got to narrow your focus - and stick to it.

I have raised too many questions???????? I have given rise to the opportunity to discuss these other possibly ancillary issues on other threads and on other forums.......ignore what you will and address what you will......


Take Your Time Dana, there is no rush.....you can answer these questions in one day or in one year or in a decade or never.......One of the beautiful things about my approach is that it allows you the choice to hook onto those things you think you have a prayer of answering (without making your arguments look like mush)...........If i gave you a single question to answer, you might actually have to address that issue......like the one that chef raised, which is why do all these men reject the alpha female.....men are not allowed to reject women, only the reverse is allowed....women are allowed choice, not men....address the massive double standard even once, with your eyes open, and I could go away happily......as if something had been learned or addressed

That is so lol funny I cannot believe it......I am not making meaningful discussion because why? Because my points are so far off base (zealous)? are you sure it isnt because I dare to raise so many issues of import to men, not necessarily women......women want to discuss gender issues, just not men's gender issues.....for women to discuss men's gender issues might involve the possiibility of finding out that women arent the endangered species that they pretend to be......

oh please, Dana, stop taking this as the personal attack it isnt and forget the fear and take the time to look at yrouself for a second.......you are rejecting my argument because I have raised too many issues?????!??!?!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!? Not because they are bad issues or they are the wrong ones............certainly if they were so bad or wrong (badrong) it would be oh so easy to show that.......like with studies from the world health oprganization where we find that domestic abuse against women is far higher than domestic abuse against men......ironically, they didnt find any domestic abuse against men cuz they never asked a single man the same questions they asked women.........thus, feminisst refuse to even ask men if they have been abused and then they report gleefully, that men arent ever battered.......look, we have proof.....its a baldface lie and I dare to say as much, thus I am a zealot cuz i dare to suggest that the feminist high preistess has no clothes ( The Emporeress has no clothes). I said it again, now the death threats can start arriving cuz I dare to unveil the matriarchy..........


meaningful discussions=narrow focus or

meaningful discussions=no controversy or

meaningful discussions=play nice is more important than raising issues that we women clearly will never ever ever want to discuss



So, my zealotry has hurt my chance to dialogue?........that is so interesting Dana since you encourage zealotry among the females (or at least understand it and do not condemn it).....

It has to do with the idea that generally the first time you try to do something you don't get it exactly right. So the first time women attempted to live with equal respect, dignity, and autonomy as compared to the way men lived for thousands of years, some of the women got a bit overzealous. That's how you get a radical feminist.

But without that zeal would change have occurred? Is our society better off for that change having occurred? Might depend on who you ask. If you ask me my answer will be that our society is infinitely better off because it is now infinitely more open to recognizing the needs of individuals to develop their own choice and autonomy to the point where they can choose to partner or not with another person.

so, the zealotry of radical feminists is good (remember Dana, one of the reasons you have trouble shaming me at this point, shaming me into silence, is that I was raised by one of those zealots), but that of men is bad, very bad, unacceptably bad.......

without that zeal would change have occurred? (that is from your own mouth, Dana, and I could use your own words to prove my point all day long, but instead I will be back in a week or a month or a year to see if you ever bothered to try to answer the issues of men who arent surendering nearly every right that men have)


without that zeal would change have occurred?

I dont know

without that zeal would change have occurred?

probably not

without that zeal would change have occurred?

that's right, no zeal, no change

without that zeal would change have occurred?

Zeal is good if possessed by a woman, but in men it is really NOT nice

without that zeal would change have occurred?

exactly my point, why the double standards are ok when directed at men, but at women, we cry foul????????????

without that zeal would change have occurred?

women, seemingly, and not all of them, only want change that benefits them and generally refuse to discuss anything that men might feel is necessary or right.........

[Akil Todd Harvey]

I doubt that the logical inconsistencies will ever get noticed, but i dare to point them out (as I see them) anyway......here is the one I like......

forum title.....Women & the Martial Arts ....thus, no gender issues are allowed to be raised (by men anyway, at least not if they dare to question the status quo-matriarchy-I know I have become dangerous when I found out we live a in a martiarchy)...we remember being thrown off this forum onto the tough issues section cuz our isses werent about martial arts.....of course this thread isnt about martial arts either, its about gender issues.....why no men for the amazons??????but daring to answer that question from a male perspective (a divergent one at that) is a bit too much for the otherwise staid and true male bashing forum....men arent bad and we bash them and women are perfect little angels and dont you even raise a fist in their general vicinity.....we might once in a while admit the predatory nature of many females, but we would never criticize them, just laugh and figure it is their perrogative to hurt the male....isnt that what men have been doing for thousands of years, hurting us females. so now it is time that we got them back.......if its wrong, it is wrong, then stop doing it

double standards are wrong? But the ones against men are oh so funny...

Who was the last successful male comic who made his living making fun of women (and men or only women)?

How many economically successful comedians do we have today whose sole act is to make fun of men?

ALL of them......

No comedian can achieve success in hollywood solely based upon making fun of the female the way so many men and women comedians have done making fun of men.....that is a double standard.......

Women are no longer willing to laugh at their foibles (they have become the new sacred cow)........nobody would dare....the females have way more power than they will ever admit.....and most of the females power comes from getting men to shame other men for them......I grew up in the home of the amazon, I know her weaknesses and I know her strengths I know her bueaty and I know her ugliness....she is not perfect, nor is she a goddess (not that anyone suggested as such)........and if everyone wants to think that her poop doesnt stink, that's on you.....all poop stink, even alpha female poop.......

hey dana, do your poops stink???????or are they spring fresh like those of the feminists?

I bet they smell like lavendar......

[Akil Todd Harvey]

Says our moderator....

our society is infinitely better off because it is now infinitely more open to recognizing the needs of individuals to develop their own choice and autonomy to the point where they can choose to partner or not with another person.

indivudal women making indivual choices, just no men are allowed to make the same choices.....isnt that what this thread is about, how bad men are for making the same choice that women have made, being independent......

Many thanks for the double standard and have a nice life......And be warned, the Emporess has no clothes.........

[Mary S]

My alpha female hackles are rising.....

I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry at this thread.

Mary S

[Stryke]

I`d respond Mary but i`m scared

seriously though , do articles and opinions make any of this true , all it proves to me is theres alot of disfunctional and bored people out there

where always hunting for a statistic or human flaw , when we should just be living , none of this stuff actually affects our reality .

we are merely reflections of our own thoughts .

[Mary S]

Stryke - you MUST be an alpha male!!!!

The sad part (for me) is that there are so many misconceptions of the opposite sex (and you can read "opposite" whichever way it suits)!

Mar

[Dana Sheets]

Akil - I can't quite figure out where you're coming from. You've managed to take a good discussion and turn it into a diatribe of illogical leaps and personal attacks which for some reason you've chosen to direct at me.

I'm fine with meaningful discussion, I'm fine with controversy. What I'm not fine with are personal attacks which is the line you crossed in your last few posts. Those are out of line.

I'm dismayed that you think I'm trying to shame you into anything. You obviously don't know me very well. I did not dismiss your comments. I was simply pointing out that you that this medium works better at discussing one topic at a time rather than 30. If you can't identify that my posts are responses to parts of the concerns you've raised then I can't help you.

you said

Zeal is good if possessed by a woman, but in men it is really NOT nice

I have no idea how you leapt to this conclusion based on what I posted nor any of the other odd and negative remarks you've chosen to make in this thread.

I've offered you ways to better communicate in this medium and you return the favor with ungrounded personal attacks and name calling.

With that, Akil - I show you the door.
You are no longer welcome here.

Until GEM tells me you've been banned please know that I'll delete anything further you post on my forum. Yours is not a behavior I will tolerate.