Positional Dominance

[Stryke]

Whereas the chief aim of all other martial arts is killing and wounding as many opponents as possible, karate’s primary concern is simply self-defense.

what a huge generalisation .

how many Tai chi guys are out massacaring folks , or Aikidoka ....

[Dana Sheets]

I believe it has been adamantly asserted on these forums more than once that most martial arts are focused on the martial aspects and not a mind-body connection. That the mind/body/personal improvement stuff is only there if you want it to be there.

It is my assertion, based on historical texts, that the karate that evolved in Okinawa at the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century had, as a fundamental principle, the goal of using training to foster personal improvement in ways beyond the scope of simple martial engagement.

That is why I posted that quote and that is part of why I train Okinawan karate.

[Stryke]

It avalid reason Dana and oneof the reasons I also train

however its a widespred message in many arts

[MikeK]

I wonder if/how Japans militerzation (sp?) molded that view of the Okinawans? Were they avoiding being pictured as fighters? IMO There's just too much detail on maiming someone contained in karate for it to be simple self defense.

[Stryke]

theres very few arts that dont stretch themselves to the philisophical , it is a by product of training in a lot of folks .


I find just as many fight storys and challenge matches , and cotradictory messages from many of themasters .

karate as a tool to subjugate the barbarian masses etc ......


It is many things to many folks , and the spiritulal is there IMHO but I beleive it comes from the martial not seperate .

there are some incrediblestyles that come to mind a lot quicker as arts of peace

not that karate isnt a calminginfluence on many a predator

[JimHawkins]

Don't have my references cause I'm on my backup PC but based on the reading I've done, the old Okinowan Masters were all about fighting and applying the arts and digging and studying in an attempt to discover how to best do that. Much it seems was lost including a text from one of the old Masters that supposedly contained thousands of notes, techniques, discoveries about the Martial aspects of his Martial studies. I think this seperation some see of self perfection from the Martial in *Martial Study* is in part a way to rationalize or 'explain' the disconnect in some training from true Martial Aspects. Of course then you have the Karate-do vs. Karate-Jitsu thing... All way too complicated IMO.

It's been stated before here but I'll say it again - the self perfection in the Martial Arts is supposed to come from and through true Martial study. Thus what differentiates self perfection through Martial training vs. self perfection through other kinds of training, such as performing the tea cerimony, or any of the many other non-martial arts done in Japan, then and now.

[Dana Sheets]

Of course there were a variety of influences. And I'm sure that then, as now, there were a variety of folks teaching how to fight that didn't care one way or the other about the character of their students.

Jim makes the correct distinction that you can seek this self-improvement by any means. And I think that wrestling with your inner demons. trying to put your ego aside and regularly looking within yourself to find the discipline to train is one strange, but effective way to develop compassion. And it is my personal opinion that if you fight to preserve yourself and those you love it will make the after effects of violence easier to cope with.

Every time I have intervened in a conflict situation I have done so with a clear conscious and clear moral compass. And in each of those situations I have felt that the good outcome was due, in part, to my mindset when I entered the conflict.

So far I've been lucky enough to be able to end the physical confrontations I entered without using physical means (with the exception of pulling apart children form time to time.) I've been able to "talk down" the adults who were physical. Will my perspective change when/if I ever have to use physical means against an adult? Dunno.

Those of you that have been in many physical conflicts - has your state of mind entering the conflict played a role in how you were able to bear the outcome of the situation? Does having a clear, smooth, intent that is grounded in compassion and not in anger help with coping with the consequences?

[gmattson]

Note Kanbun's original "dojo Kun". Much emphasis on mainstream Japanese martial art fighting decorum.
(using dictionary definition: Appropriateness of behavior or conduct)

He certainly gave a great deal of thought to his "Kun" prior to hanging it on his dojo wall and creating such stringent enrollment requirements.

Regardless how one feels about the relationship of body/mind/spirit that pervades most of the old Japanese and Okinawan systems, I guess all of the old method teachers felt some moral, if not legal, responsibility for their students' actions.

Now to the "force continuum". Some teachers believe a martial artist must fight (regardless of the intensity) with a calm mind. Others teach to "let yourself go crazy" and become worse than the enemy you fight.

Regarding turning these fighting attributes on and off, according to some "continuum", I don't see how a student who has been drilled in turning yourself into a beast when fighting, will be able to turn this off when the enemy suddenly decides he/she has had enough.

On the other hand, perhaps the "beast" (ever watch Pro wrestling) in you was the thing that made the enemy give up.

[JimHawkins]

And I'm sure that then, as now, there were a variety of folks teaching how to fight that didn't care one way or the other about the character of their students.

This may or may not be true but I think the distinction should be made that just because some may have focused on combative skills or sought combative understanding and skill; through control of the opponent; which can only come through control of the self, that there need be any less emphasis on good character or character building.

In fact, I feel quite the opposite in as much as those who focused on the martial were probably held to higher standards, had more self esteem and personal control. If the true enemy lies within <in normal folks> then to a Martial Artist the highest level of <self control> is demonstrated by how well he performs his art through control of his opponents. Does this not all connect back to the ID the Ego - and finally it's demise leading to unification and cultivation, in a real sense, of the mind body and spirit in the art and to true cultivation of Martial character?

[gmattson]

is more effective?

If you have the ability, the physical, mindset and confidence; Calmness will overcome "crazy".

If you don't have the ability, you will quickly lose the confidence needed to fight the crazy and you will revert to the most primitive fighting skills you may have programmed. . . which might not be very effective.

So many variables. . . so many levels of abilities, confidence and mindset!

[MikeK]

I believe it has been adamantly asserted on these forums more than once that most martial arts are focused on the martial aspects and not a mind-body connection. That the mind/body/personal improvement stuff is only there if you want it to be there.

Dana, I don't think you can pull off much of the advanced karate techniques without the mind and body aspect, which to me means a calm, clear mind that doesn't get in the way of getting the job done. I'm just starting this phase of my training and so far it's the most difficult. Of course this leads into the entire high road/low road thing. Any martial art is magnified by the practitioners (from karateka to sniper) ability to control himself when under pressure.

The personal improvement part is to me the optional aspect of karate. I know of many excellent karateka that could have used a lot of work in this area. Even some of the great old karate masters like Kyan and Choki Motubo were not the picture of the wizened, gentle master that we like to think about. Unless getting drunk, gambling, fighting and getting $#@*ed are what we think as proper behavior of a karate master.

[Stryke]

Those of you that have been in many physical conflicts - has your state of mind entering the conflict played a role in how you were able to bear the outcome of the situation? Does having a clear, smooth, intent that is grounded in compassion and not in anger help with coping with the consequences?

I agree with the lot except the grounded in compassion part , being clear calm and having intent is the key .

Most people behave like children , they respond well to calm unemotional boundarys imposed , my objective is to always appear nonchalont but uncannily aware , just have more pressence , peace of mind , and just enough uncertainty in the patrons mind .

always make it the opponents decission to escalate , dont give him an excuse to convince himself to be an ##### , be clear and unthreatening , but maintain a presence , show no weakness but no agression .

then his intent will be clear , and all physchological doubt will be his .

He`s lost half the battle already .

I`ve used this method many times .

[Roger]

watch this guy transition throught the positions!

http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=g4nresbab.0.ff5 ... G_NAGA.wmv

[Dana Sheets]

Hello Roger,

Welcome to my forum and thanks for the link.

Dana