1,000 times (should have been 10,000 times)

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Dana Sheets
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1,000 times (should have been 10,000 times)

Post by Dana Sheets »

For each technique, for each angle of entry, for each level of resistance.

This was suggested in seminar by Patrick McCarthy as the best way to work out the "kinks" in any technique in your system. If, after your 1,000 repetitions of the techinique - you still had any questions on how to make it work. He said he would be surprised.

Is it possible that the modern day karate-ka wants the learning process to be shortened when biologically it cannot be?

Can someone learn in what I learned in 1000 breakfalls in just 100? When does it become an automatic response?

In old school judo you fell for a year before you learned to throw. Our instructor had us fall for three months. After three months I could be slammed into the ground by men well over 6' tall from over their heads.

Do it again.

And again.

And again.

Will the next generation of teachers be able to hold students on the basics long enough for them to "take" and become automatic in the digital age when everyone wants everything NOW!?

I wonder.

Hey Rich - how often do the Marines drill their basics? Couple times, maybe 50? Best it is more than a couple...

-Dana
Last edited by Dana Sheets on Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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-Metablade-
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Re: 1,000 times

Post by -Metablade- »

Dana Sheets wrote:
Do it again.

And again.

And again.
Depending on the Dojo, In Kendo, beginners usually do not wear Keikogi and Bugu for 6 months to a year.
Katas are typically not begun until sankyu or nikyu.

Beginners need to be comfortable with the basic footwork and posture, which may sound easy, but just simply standing up correctly can cause a cascade of sweat over just a few minutes. Most of the beginner training is spent just literally "learning how to stand and walk."
But most of all, things are done;
again,
and again,
and again,
and again,
and again,
~ad infinitum.

Just as we practice the even most basic of movements over and over, and over again, we also seek to polish, over time, bit by bit, that which is a hard lump of dull black coal, into a brilliantly clear and fiery diamond.

:D
There's a bit of Metablade in all of us.
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

Isnt it ten thousand Dana ?

1000 really isnt very much , I could throw a thousand punches in a week and still not know how to hit .... heck Ive done a thousand kicks in one session several times it`s really not many .

It depends on the practice and the quality of it , repitition just helps

if your trying to make it work on a resisitng opponent I agree you should have it worked out somewhere along the way ....

But it`s just another cliche IMHO
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Dana Sheets
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Post by Dana Sheets »

You know - you're right - it might be 10,000. I wasn't thinking as I typed it but that sounds better. Mr. McCarthy gives out little log books to his students where they get to put an x on the chart every 100 times they do the technique. So yeah - 10,000 is a better number. Thanks.

BTW - I've become a white belt again...in guitar. :D

Never really tried it before want wanted to be able to play an instrument that is more social than clarinet or cello. One of the things I'm using is a DVD set that was given to me featuring this guy:
Esteban
(Stephen Paul, 1948- ) Guitarist.
Lives in Phoenix area

Esteban grew up as Stephen, one of four children of a Pittsburgh steelworker. He majored in music and English at Carnegie Mellon University, and went on to study under guitar maestro Andres Segovia in Spain. Unable to pronounce "Stephen," Segovia called him the Spanish equivalent which eventually became his stage name.

Esteban's road to popular CD performing artist was more than a little rocky. A car crash in 1980 left him nearly blind in one eye and with such extensive nerve damage to his hands that he was unable to perform for nearly a decade.

Finally able to perform, Esteban took a job playing mellow guitar in the Lobby Bar at Scottsdale's Hyatt Regency. There he performed for 11 years. Things changed when Joy Mangano heard him perform at the Hyatt in Atlanta. She was convinced that she could sell his music not through a record company, but through the television merchandising.

Mangano convinced QVC, the television network purveyor of jewelry, mops and gadgets, to feature Esteban's CD. Through TV concerts on the shopping channel, QVC began selling Esteban albums--and lots of them. After 6 concerts over 50,000 albums had been sold.
Image
He may be a bit notorious in the guitar circles for being a sell-out and selling a cheap product, but so far I'm enjoying the lessons on the DVD and I'll be thrilled if I ever sound half as good as he does. I've also got a book by Happy Traum (who by odd coincidence played on the soundtrack of a film by boss did back in the 80's called "We Dig Coal.")

Anyway - Esteban has one beautiful suggestion in his DVD on learning to play the guitar that I'm going to be using in class.

"Keep doing that until it is comfortable - until it flows."

That suggestion has kept me on the chromatic scale and two chords since Mid-November. Until I can do both with fingers and pick until they flow - there's no real point in moving on.

So - I'm thinking about really taking more time with the beginning students with each step of training and keeping the above thought in the back of my mind and in the language I use when I teach. It has a much better ring to it than saying to do something twenty or fifty times on each side...

"Keep doing that until it is comfortable - until it flows."
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-Metablade-
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Post by -Metablade- »

Dana:
"Keep doing that until it is comfortable - until it flows."

Meta:
....And until your finger tips callous over.

Oh yes, there will be blood.
~and cut piggies.


I play the Guitar, Shinobue, and the Taiko.

I say: Who cares if Esteban does infomercials?
I think it's great what he's offering for the price.
Anyone who thinks he's a sellout perhaps is just jealous.
I mean, the man can play like he's possessed!

Congratulations and good luck to you!
:)
There's a bit of Metablade in all of us.
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JimHawkins
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Post by JimHawkins »

Simply doing a technique over and over does not really address the basics of what makes a technique work or not. Working the movements help for building motor memory but leave out the critical stimulus/response/feedback programming. What makes most techniques useable or not is determined by how fast the CNS can recognize the correct condition for the technique to be applied and then fit the technique in with the right timing and positional dynamic in the moment.

First off the CNS must be able to recognize the condition, the sooner this can happen the higher are the chances for success. This can be done through either visual or tactile <feeling> sensitivity. Feel is many times faster that sight but not always available in a pre-contact situation. So, first identifying the correct condition and making that ID simpler and faster by training to recognize it over and over must be part of the solution. Once the condition is recognized the correct response must be trained to follow within a very short period that allows enough time to execute the technique while the correct condition still exists. In the event that the conditions change then so must the response and then the CNS recognition process must repeat and be familar with constant change.

So, even if the motor skills are there and sharp it is the CNS's ability to recognize, process and generate the correct solution and then pass that motor skill request on in the moment that really determines what is and what is not practical. The time that this entire process requires to complete is called reaction time delay and must be addressed in training to both minimize through visual and tactile feedback as well as by using the simplest, smallest and most direct movements.

For example, if we are not in contact with the opponent and our hands/arms must reposition before action is taken <re-position here means make more than one action> then the chances of the CNS processing the problem, generating the solution and executing it in time drops dramatically and we fail to adapt.

We can begin to make things easier for the CNS to process through simplification in terms of:

1. Shrinking Actions/Movements

Reducing the number of movements in time.

Reducing the size of the movements.

Eliminate changing directions.

Eliminate preliminary movements or tool repositioning.

2. Action Options

Reducing the total number of possible response choices trained.

By using responses that are similar to one and other using a common thread in movement and thought.

3. Combining actions

Using both hands with body movement to effectively execute more than one movement at a time.

Use actions and movements that contain both a defensive and offensive component.

4. Multiple Sensory Inputs

Through the use of feel reaction time delay may be reduced substantially.

Training to recognize conditions both through feel and visual senses allows greater CNS input, sensory crossover and deeper programming.


5. Simplify visual perception

Use gates, lines or other visual cues to simplify the information you see.

Quite the mind, leave the noise behind and open the mind to the opponent's actions.

---------------

When looking at any defensive action or technique we must be mindful of the reaction delay and then re-evaluate the technique in question taking into consideration that delay. If the technique in question contains multiple passive movements, repositioning of the tools prior to execution, acute visual sensitivity, etc., then the technique may not be correctly implemented and no matter how much you go through the motions the technique will be 'off'. Any visually implemented technique must be extremely fast, simple and direct.

So, while motor coordination itself is important and can be trained alone it is only a small part of a complete CNS process that makes recognition and application possible. The CNS more than anything else is what must be trained, trained correctly and given reasonable options to execute that fit within the limits of the human animal’s ability to process information. Yes, those techniques must be worked over and over thousands of times but with the correct condition and feedback; Later more and more resistance can be added and still later a variety of problem choices can be added. Only with this kind of training can the CNS get used to and greatly speed up its ability to solve problems and generate solutions.
Shaolin
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"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
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Dana Sheets
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Post by Dana Sheets »

Jim - have you though about submitting some of this stuff as an article someplace? Journal of Asian Martial Arts comes to mind as well as Dragon Times.

They really are two different trainings - learning what movements and principles make a technique work so you can execute it from a functional standpoint.

And then applying that concept in a fluid environment so you can executive it from a practical standpoint.

The condition when it is useful - good thought.

-Dana
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RACastanet
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Post by RACastanet »

Hey Rich - how often do the Marines drill their basics? Couple times, maybe 50? Best it is more than a couple...
From my experience, ultimately many hundreds if not thousands of times. There were days that all we did was take turns throwing each other. And more often than not this was not in a mat room but outside in a training area that was often pretty nasty. It got to a point where we were looking for even the slightest patch of grass or weeds to get some minimal padding. I am easily in the 'many thousands' category.

At the first level everyone gets tossed a few dozen times in each takedown or breakfall technique. That adds to hundreds in the first course. The limit is how many times can you practice 50 techniques (only about 10 of which involve falling) in a 30 hour training period. To get to the second belt test you need to have 15 or so documented hours of practicing techniques previously learned, and on and on. So repetitions accumulate. I dare say the instructor trainers have all done the throws or been thrown thousands upon thousands of times.

Having enjoyed much of this hi-rep training and observing others during the IT courses there is no doubt that the average Marine body can take incredible punsihment and continue to function for weeks and months at this level.

The one thousand rule seems a little light actually as the number I usually see or hear is more on the order of 2 to 3 thousand reps before a technique is burned into muscle memory. I actually handle some firearm almost daily doing dry fire or operating the controls or some such thing. Put a handgun in my hand and I do not need to think at all about how to operate it effectively.

The best techniques I learned from the Marine's high level close combat trainer was instinctive shooting without aiming. It is one handed and uses what is essentially a sanchin position with elbows in, shoulders pulled down and squaring yourself to the target. After many reps I can put all my shots on the centerline of my target and most in the sweet spots. But, it took many reps to learn and many reps to maintain. However, being schooled in sanchin made it much easier for me than most others as the position was already a part of my muscle memory.

Rich
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!
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JimHawkins
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Post by JimHawkins »

Dana Sheets wrote: They really are two different trainings - learning what movements and principles make a technique work so you can execute it from a functional standpoint.

And then applying that concept in a fluid environment so you can executive it from a practical standpoint.
I agree one can break things down, like working a movement alone <kata> and then with feedback/stimuli but I don't agree they are different things, since there is no reason for any technique or movement to exist alone removed from application, removed from sensory feedback.

Conservation crosses over into training as well as technique so when we work a movement, action or technique we try to work it with response conditioning and with sensory feedback and resistance whenever possible – trying as best as we can NOT to make these things separate but rather as a connected and unified whole as often as possible.
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
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Dana Sheets
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Post by Dana Sheets »

You can absolutely teach function without form however the perfection of form and the perfection of application are subtly different forms of mastery. One is the mastery of yourself when you are the only thing in your own way. The other is the mastery of yourself when there is opposition.
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Stryke

Post by Stryke »

Perfect for what ? , here goes this undefined goal again

while I agree Dana mastery of the self can be harder than mastery of an opponent , whats this imagined unquantifiable definition that shifts and moves we strive for ...

a zen thing I guess , different strokes ... And very valid , just frustrating for me .... 8O
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JimHawkins
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Post by JimHawkins »

Dana Sheets wrote: You can absolutely teach function without form however the perfection of form and the perfection of application are subtly different forms of mastery.
Well not for me and not the way I teach or train.

For me the only purpose of form is good application - one key to successful application is form, especially when things like leverage, position and energy issuing are in play.

In WCK and perhaps most CMA we do our best not to separate how we think of these elements which combine with other attributes to make things work, like leverage, power, position, timing, energy, etc, where 'form' contributes to parts of this overall set of ingredients.

This, of course, assumes that a particular movement has an application. In 'kata' there may be generic moves but as the student progresses the 'kata' will change slightly to reflect how he/she uses the movements in application.
Dana Sheets wrote: One is the mastery of yourself when you are the only thing in your own way. The other is the mastery of yourself when there is opposition.
In my experience the inner enemy is most apparent when there is an outside enemy holding up a 'mirror' for us to see ourselves through... ;)
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
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