Tim Cartmell

[Dana Sheets]

This gentleman was mentioned on another thread and in order not to take too big of a tangent on that I one I'll post my little research effort here.

WHen his name was mentioned I drew a blank but as soon as I saw the title for his book "Effortless Combat Throws" which I've been meaning to buy for the last three years I rembered who he is.

Here's a good quote from a biography interview from here:
http://www.shenwu.com/background.htm

In a nutshell, Xing Yi Quan techniques tend to be more percussive in nature, with the Xing Yi Quan fighter preferring to attack, otherwise taking the smallest defensive angle possible before counter-attacking. It is important to remember Xing Yi Quan is an art originally based upon spear fighting. Tai Ji -Quan techniques tend toward yielding to force completely and then returning it to the opponent, much as the rebound of a rubber ball or the counter action to pressure on a balance scale. Tai Ji Quan techniques have their roots in the hand to hand combat techniques of the unarmed warrior dealing with an armed opponent. Ba Gua Zhang techniques differ widely between styles but emphasize mobility, flexible bodywork and evasion with direct counter attack. Striking combinations are secondary to throwing, takedown and leverage techniques.

And another:

Principles of the arts later named Internal were complete physical relaxation, yielding to force, the use of the power of the whole body under mental control and relying on sensitivity and skill to overcome brute strength. Now here is the problem with such labels. It is not the particular Art itself that is Internal or External, it is the way the art is practiced. There are no Internal or External martial arts, only Internal and External practitioners (if we assume Internal refers to the principles listed above, and external is anything which is outside of these principles). I have seen practitioners of the so-called External arts who were as soft as cotton and who threw their opponents seemingly by magic. I have also seen practitioners of Xing Yi Quan tensing their muscles so much that their arms were shaking with the effort.

good thoughts to chew on.

I often hear other teachers refer to some style as being Internal while another is External out of hand; if questioned, they really have no clear concept of the difference. It is popular to repeat some nebulous definition along the lines of the Internal styles cultivating Qi while the External styles are more concerned with muscle force. This is merely parroting the party line and, I think it will only lead to increasing confusion.

happy training,
Dana

[Mike Sigman]

And another:

Principles of the arts later named Internal were complete physical relaxation, yielding to force, the use of the power of the whole body under mental control and relying on sensitivity and skill to overcome brute strength. Now here is the problem with such labels. It is not the particular Art itself that is Internal or External, it is the way the art is practiced. There are no Internal or External martial arts, only Internal and External practitioners (if we assume Internal refers to the principles listed above, and external is anything which is outside of these principles). I have seen practitioners of the so-called External arts who were as soft as cotton and who threw their opponents seemingly by magic. I have also seen practitioners of Xing Yi Quan tensing their muscles so much that their arms were shaking with the effort.

good thoughts to chew on.

I don't know Tim Cartmell, but I am good friends of some of the people that trained in the same classes with him, so I'll defer any conversation about his knowledge of "internal" training in regard to any exact quotes from him about the subject. The politics of who would show how much to foreigners is an interesting one and the beginning of the conversation probably could be referenced back to Robert W. Smith's books about what he learned on Taiwan. It's an interesting discussion. Some of the inside stories are pretty funny; one of my best friends is a native-born Taiwanese who grew up on Taiwan (studied Xingyi) and who has told me a lot of the "face" complexities that a martial-arts teacher on Taiwan has to confront if he teaches foreigners.

But that to the side, I'll throw in my perspectives and opinions about some of the "internal" and "external", and related, things.

First, let me say something about "hard" and "soft". Respectively, these are "gang" and "rou". The famous saying is about a balance between hardness and softness ("Gang Rou Xiang Ji"). This can be taken in a couple of ways, but in reality it boils down to a combination of percussive use and throws/locks. A "rou" art is an art that specializes in throws and locks, for example, even if there are occasional strikes in the art. For instance, Aikido is a "rou" art (the Japanese pronunciation of "rou" is "ju"... the "ju jitsu" are the soft arts because of this), but Aikido still will have strikes or atemi in it. A karate style may often be called a "hard" style, but the implication is that it has more percussive techniques than throws and locks, rather than the idea that everyone has stiff muscles.

"Internal" is a tricky term. A lot of people seem to assign the mysterious connotation to "internal", but the problem is that there is no clear delineation between the so-called "internal" and "external" martial arts. The arts that are called "internal" are usually Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua. Strangely enough there is a strong argument for the idea that all 3 of these arts had a common precursor in Shanxi Province, long ago. However, technically, the best delineator for the "internal family" (the "neijia") is that they "hit with the dantien", meaning that they use a form of body coordination called the Six Harmonies and they actively produce a muscular knot in the dantien area from controlling the body with that aspect. I've seen so-called "qi balls" in the belly that look like that alien thing trying to break out of someone, like in the Sigourney Weaver flick. And to be factual, there are more than just those 3 arts that use this particular mode of movement. I've been told that there are about 16 arts total that would technically fall into the "internal" classification, IF you opt to go with a narrowly defined set of criteria.

In terms of "qi" and "jin" body skills, the "internal arts" are only one facet of the Chinese (and Japanese, etc.) martial arts that deliberately develop those things. There are a number of ways to develop those skills, there are a number of degrees of development, there are muscular and there are softer ways to utilize the body conditioning and force manipulation skills, there are levels of practitioners through all the styles, and so on. Because someone doing a hissing, rigid body development of so-called qi-skills looks so radically different from someone dressed as a Taoist sage and doing soft movements, people think they're seeing different training methods. In reality they're just seeing different takes on the same basic principles. Different styles have developed their own favorite approaches to the so-called "qi" and "jin" skills but in reality it's no more than just watching people with their own favorite recipes for home-made mayonnaise.

If a style is "half internal and half external" (saying it is far easier than the reality, IMO), the implication is that within the techniques there are some techniques that use strength/power and some techniques that work by manipulation of jin/"internal strength" manipulation. No one is considered to have "internal" strength unless they can (a.) manipulate jin and (b.) has developed the fascia/pressure strengths from focused qigongs and similar exercises.

Anyway, that's my contribution of perspectives, FWIW.

Regards,

Mike

[Willy]

consider picking up the tapes as well Dana, the material is very well presented.

http://www.plumflower.com/chin_na_and_c ... hrowin.htm

[Joe B]

Hi Dana,

Tim is a great teacher and studied with some pretty excellent teachers both in Taiwan and on the Mainland.
He also went to Taiwan originally to study classical Chinese doing graduate work in the language. He already was an advanced student of San Soo. He has translated a lot of classical works in martial arts from Chinese to English.

He's one tough and excellent martial artist. He also is the first person awarded a Black Belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu from Cleber Luciano in Royler Gracies organization. This is one of the reasons why a lot of "traditional" internal martial artists are intimidated by Tim. He often times puts it on the line and competes in competition still (he's in his 40's)

Tim lived in Taiwan and the mainland for close to 12 years. He's very legitimate. In fact, his wife (who is Taiwanese) and Tim came back for some very specific reasons which I'll leave out.

Tim's real study gain (IMO) was when he went to the mainland and studied with Sun Lu Tang's granddaughter and Liang Ke Quan (Xing Yi). In fact, Liang Laoshi asked Tim to leave with him in Beijing. Gao Laoshi really helped him simplify concepts back in Taiwan and Luo really taught him that "internal" was about fighting.
Tim pulled things together from a lot of different teachers. I'll agree that some of Tim's earlier experiences in Taiwan were positive but maybe not as deep as what he gleamed later from some of the others later in his stay.

The word "internal" is a term that was first published and marketed in Sun Lu Tang's 1917 book on Bagua Zhang.
The concepts of the three arts are consistent and Sun referred to them as "sister arts." It also happened to be the same 3 arts Sun practiced and trained in. An interesting note is that White Ape and Baji along with others arts are also considered to be "internal" by many advanced trainees on the mainland.

You can practice Taiji and not adhere to the principles that make it "internal."

Internal is just a word. People get hung up on words.

Dana - Chapter 2 of "Effortless Throws" is the best chapter I've read on martial study. It's all about the principles. The appendix is excellent too.

If you want to do a documentary on a very interesting person - Tim might be the guy. Let me know if you'd like to give him a call. He's an encyclopedia on Martial Arts.
He's also one of my very good friends.

Good training,
Joe