Seisan Bushikens

2Green · Post by **2Green** » Wed May 31, 2006 3:36 am

I'm having trouble with the Seisan Bushikens (three of them, right after the double-downblock/double neck strikes in the opening moves.)

I can make them work very well in application, but I can't make them look right in Kata.

The problem is this:
In application there is a stopper to the hit: the stopper is the incoming punch.
But in Kata there is no stopper -- you have to somehow stop your own arm making it LOOK like you hit a stopper.

How do you perform this technique into the air and make it look identical to application?
Mine always stretch out too far since there is nothing out there to stop them, therefore the form is off.

I've been told that there is a way to throw them in Kata to make them "bounce" upward but every time someone tries to show me this, it looks like they are simply "pushing" the strike upward.
So the demos aren't really showing me anything useful.

Any clues as to how to make these strikes look correct in Kata?

NM

CANDANeh · Post by **CANDANeh** » Wed May 31, 2006 3:50 am

Consider this Neil, are they really buskins?????? Maybe...neck breaks via a shear? Forget the "application" in bunkai. Not all is what it seems.

Joe Graziano · Post by **Joe Graziano** » Wed May 31, 2006 5:07 am

Remember when you were a kid and turned your bicycle upside down and worked the pedals? My suggestion would be to go for that same feel, rather than the isolated true bushiken full power strike found elsewhere in our kata.

Keep it sanchin (phone booth, albeit an obsolete reference nowadays) distance and you're good.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Wed May 31, 2006 6:01 am

I can make them work very well in application, but I can't make them look right in Kata.

I dont see why they should stop , I prefer them flowing in a circular action in kata .

I guess i`m in sink with Joes advice .

I see it as I think Bill has mentioned , kind of like a chaining movement , not stoppages .

But I dont do kata to an aesthetic ideal .

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Wed May 31, 2006 2:29 pm

For me I focus on keeping the shoulder back and down fixing my arm at the elbow.

So the explosion of the strike rotates the shoulder joint which stops at a certain point because I don't let it lift up. Since the elbow, for this strike, remains relatively fixed then my strike hits and the endpoint is based on the range of motion of my shoulder.

Please note that I don't stiffen my shoulder, I just don't let it fly out. What Joe has said about the bicycle is a really great image. (Hi Joe!!!) If you can circle 100 of these strikes in a row with them all ending in the same place - then stopping the last one won't be a problem.

Since I'm an aural learner...this sequences is more ba, ba bop instead of WHAM WHAM WHAM.

One thing that helped me see how these work was to have someone hold a shield and do continuous strikes into the bag - because they keep getting hit on a slightly upward angle they soon lose their root and without much force at all you're driving them across the floor.

ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, bop.

For you Neil I would say it is the difference between three stacco 32nd notes on a tight snare drum and a triplet on a timpani drum. The former is my understanding of this sequence and the latter (as Joe already said) is the boshiken used elsewhere in the kata.

Joe Graziano · Post by **Joe Graziano** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:33 am

Stryke,

Although kata by advanced practitioners should be aesthetic (that would be the beauty component of speed, power, and beauty), of course we should ensure that we've developed the speed and power first.

As Dana alluded to (Hi Dana) the shoulders should not change from down and back (natural carry) mode. One very sensible interpretation of the technique in question is considering it as a block and strike in one, on someone who has rapidly appeared "in your face".

With your elbow bent on executing the technique (sanchin distance), notice that if you rotate your hand 90 degrees to the outside and flip it, what do you have? You guessed it - sanchin position.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:57 am

Although kata by advanced practitioners should be aesthetic (that would be the beauty component of speed, power, and beauty), of course we should ensure that we've developed the speed and power first.

Oh I think great kata peformances are incredibly beautifull

I just beleive form follows function and the real beauty is of course doing the function right .

loking right should be a by product not a goal , its natural to look good once it`s natural .

sorry for the slightly off topic ...

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:16 pm

Although kata by advanced practitioners should be aesthetic (that would be the beauty component of speed, power, and beauty), of course we should ensure that we've developed the speed and power first.

Hi Joe,

Always a pleasure to see you.

Can you share your views on the mechanics of developing speed and power as per your observations in Okinawa?

Should a kata be done as fast as one can, or should this apply only to the individual sequence of movements?

Best regards,

Joe Graziano · Post by **Joe Graziano** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:08 pm

Hi Van,

Thanks but the pleasure is mine.

Personally I have not seen a more powerful kata than that of your good friend and my teacher Walter Sensei. Both his teacher, Takara Sensei and he emphasize exploding from a relaxed position using hip rotation and the large muscles of the body - really not unlike your TC method.

I agree with Stryke re form following function. Accordingly, if we need to utilize lots of body movement, momentum and hip rotation to achieve our maximum power, so be it. Okay to exaggerate in training. Once we get as much power as we can, we can work on making our exaggerated movements more subtle. If over time we can achieve the same effect with less motion, great.

It is very inspiring to observe senior practitioners do a very natural kata, strain free, but extremely fast (on individual techniques) and powerful. They all stress the importance of being relaxed.

My observations are that overall speed of the kata tends to detract from the effectiveness of the individual techniques. Not to say a fast kata does not have a valid training purpose. If nothing else it reminds us of how much work we need to do.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:27 pm

Thank you Joe, most excellent.

I don't teach 'as fast as 'fast can' kata' as it is my firm belief that it goes to reinforce 'stress flail' as opposed to embedding 'decisive motion' during the 'chemical flare' _

When working with you and Wally, I see this deliberation at work.

Thanks for stopping by.

Joe Graziano · Post by **Joe Graziano** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:27 am

Excellent point Van on the "stress flail" vs. "decisive movements", something I work on all the time in conducting LEO UOF training. Reminding officers to breathe (exhale - we needn't worry about the inhale) and that "smooth is fast" seem to be keys to success in helping to overcome the "chemical flair" components, including tunnel vision. Also helps with our obligation to stay within "objectively reasonable" UOF.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:51 am

Excellent posts , thanks Van , Jay

couldnt agree more

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:35 pm

Excellent point Van on the "stress flail" vs. "decisive movements", something I work on all the time in conducting LEO UOF training.

Given that you teach these components at the federal law enforcement level_ this is of great interest to me Joe.

Deliberate/decisive motion and mental capacity to ‘deal’ with what is happening or about to happen_ while sinking into the chaos of sudden violence [see my thread ‘here is your fight’] _ is the key to survival or perish as per my LFI training under Ayoob and Farnam.

The mind ‘clouds’ and body ‘clouding’ follows quickly.

I’d be interested in more of your professional views, and drills_ specific to overcoming the effects of the dump, Joe.

Reminding officers to breathe (exhale - we needn't worry about the inhale)

When do you feel/observe that lack of breathing occurs and ‘sinks’ the individual when called upon to perform under stress, and how to bring about a radical change.

Thank you for the valuable insight.