What keeps women off these forums?

[Valkenar]

I could go on and on that manner for twenty pages or so, but really, what more can I say?

I'm not a misogynist, dude. I'm just crazy.

Okay, sorry if I misunderstood. In the context of that thread I took what you posted as sarcasm.

[Dana Sheets]

To each his own.

To a certain extent...yes - to each his own. However the idea of community values I discussed earlier apply. If this community reaches the point where the majority of posters share a definition of tact then the outliers will be asked to comply with the community standards.

This already happens here, in part, because of US law and the baseline shared values of the posters, and the actions of the moderators.

So there is no overt racism, porn, child porn, hate crime type stuff on these forums (thank goodness.) However, where there is disagreement is in how relationships with women are discussed and how women are referenced and portrayed. FWIW there's disagreement about this between both male and the female posters.

What I don't like, personally, are comments that talk about "all US women" vs "all European women" - that's just a bunch of hooey and a waste of time. I was so completely annoyed when I spent a year in Europe and the European men kept asking me what American women like. The very idea is just silly and absurd.

I'm really grateful to Mary Chant for posting up her very honest and objective assessment of her experience on these forums.

The last bit she said:

d) dissenting posters (the individual, not the thought) are maligned or dismissed.

This is the thing that I think is a consistent issue on these forums. I know I've done it and I know I've seen it done over and over again. Maligning dissenting posters instead of the content of their posts is a terrible practice if we really want to promote open discussion.

If we just want to have a bunch of people that agree and help us feel more safe and secure in what we think we know - then it is a great practice. (Ick.)

One more time:

dissenting posters (the individual, not the thought) are maligned or dismissed.

Let he or she who has not sinned now cast the first stone.

Now let's all circle up and I'll start...
Hi, my name is Dana and I'm a dismisser.

And here's the challenging part - folks may be doing the above and are not aware because they're so focused on staying inside their comfort zone instead of really opening up their minds and trying to understand what other posters are saying.

The above is a behavior I think would be worthwile to reign in.

[Van Canna]

As I said Dana _ to each his own.

I have been through this lunacy on my page in regard to the 'Uechi-dissed nation' _ time and again.

It gets tiring and onerous.

And as I said _ the men and women who feel ‘dissed’ by threads and posters on my forum _ can turn the page and move on.

As to European vs. American women _ there is a lot to learned by living in Europe for a 'while'.

What Caroline writes here hits square in between the eyes

In Europe sexuality is the essence of man-woman relationships. In North America it’s all behind closed doors, and any reference to it, causes great angst, and put down feelings.
You go to Europe and women are openly affectionate and sexual. They don't hide, or feel threatened by their desires like the women do in North America.

In America, you'll get bombarded with reverse female logic and hypocrisy.

I was born and brought up as a European_ I have also lived in the US a long time _ and I am afraid that what Caroline writes is all truth.

But then I have found some truly exceptional American women.

It is like martial arts practitioners _ some have it some don’t.

[Dana Sheets]

No Van, it isn't all truth. It is a generalization. That may be your experience, but it isn't mine. You find it to have validity. I do not.

[Van Canna]

As I said Dana _ to each his own

[X]

is a beautiful thing if

believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.

- buddha

[Van Canna]

Right on...

Thus 'to each his own' _

[AAAhmed46]

I have always taught and argued: WHY treat women differently?
You must think of your opponent not as a man or a woman but as simply an opponent.

Yeah, i agree.

But i do treat woman differently from men because they tend to weigh alot less.

But it's no different from how i treat a lighter man(unless i know i can be more rough with them)

[Bill Glasheen]

I got to thinking about your post, Meta, while at the gym tonight doing clean and jerk repetitions. Throwing weight around is so cathartic and so mentally cleansing, no?

You must think of your opponent not as a man or a woman but as simply an opponent.

Other than noticing the obvious because I am human, I'm with you so far.

To give 100% earnest sincere effort to your partner(opponent) is to honor yourself and your opponent. To do anything less is to show disrespect to everything you are working for.

Why did this bother me so much? Probably because it seemed so "deep" - in a mystical mumbo jumbo way...

Throw some weight around. Sweat to see the truth.

Then I realize what I really feel - that I disagree.

If you're a teacher - and I am first and foremost a teacher when I am Sensei - then you don't give 100% to your students. You give 100% if you are on the battlefield and you wish to crush your opponent and go home. But if you are any kind of half decent practitioner and have been around long enough to be a teacher, you're likely capable of cushing a good number of your students. So great... You give 100%, crush your student, and go home.

Now what?

No... This is counter to a philosophy espoused in an article in JAMA (Journal of Asian Martial Arts) on Systema.

There they talked about going up to BUT NOT BEYOND the level of the student - even while practicing with bladed weapons. Why? Because the last thing you want to do WHEN TEACHING is to program in inappropriate flinch responses.

A good flinch response would be slipping and putting your hand out, which often will succeed in shattering your wrist. Great... Have you taught your student how to fall? Nope... To teach a student for instance to fall on the side, you pull the mats out and take the edge off the fall. Instead of having student flinch by throwing arm out, you have them do something VERY CLOSE TO the flinch. You have them slap with the arm. And you have them fall on a surface that is very forgiving so they won't constantly be flinching and doing something that is contrary to their best interest (shattering their wrist when falling on a hard surface). And you have them do that about a few thousand times or so.

And then one day student falls on a gravel parking lot, and what you have programmed in to replace the flinch response will kick in. They will get scratched up a little, but they likely will get back up and tell their friends about the fall the next day.

That is teaching.

Working over many years to teach someone to be better than they were when they walked in the front door is teaching. Having them meet some artificial standard - YOUR ability - doesn't mean much if you injure them along the way (what have you succeeded in doing??) or they quit (what have you succeeded in doing???)

Creating natural selection in the dojo is not teaching. It's culling the weak because you ****** at teaching.

Besides, it has been my experience that woman can, will, and in some cases attack harder and more ferocious than some men.

Indeed this will happen if you are a good teacher and you unleash their tiger - over however long it takes.

I hear men can do that as well...

Most women will not "go easy" on their opponents, so why should men?

That isn't my experience. My experience is that women find it harder to hit another individual. There are exceptions of course. But when I think about people I have to put fire under to get them to beat the &*%$ out of someone, it's more often women than men. It's just how they are; it's not a value judgement.

To me, that is true equality. Everyone equal in the eyes of Sensei.

If we were all equal, then I'd be a professional baseball player and have as many homers as Big Papi.



Bill Glasheen knows baseball. But Bill Glasheen is no Big Papi.

The same should exist in public, and in business.

Bullhockey. If we were all equal in our capitalist society, then we would all be paid the same. But we aren't. If we all had equal strengths and weaknesses, then we'd all be interchangeable in a company. But we aren't.

Ever taken Meyers Briggs? I have. Between my IQ, my EQ, and my psychological profile, I know where I'm good and I know where I ******. And I very much rely on others to fill in my weaknesses. That's leadership. That's team building. That's creating synergy in the work place. That's respecting those around you for what they have to offer - irrespective of gender.

And yes, genders to some extent do fall into certain careers in unequal numbers. It is what it is. Estrogen is estrogen, and testosterone is testosterone.

That's how you run a corporation. Equal pay for equal work, yes. But we aren't created equal, so we don't get paid the same. We find our niches, and do our best while getting paid what the market will bear. That's the basic principle of division of labor in action.

That's how you run a military as well, and the military very much is a martial affair. Each individual fills a role, and the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Some folks fly the planes, and some folks fix the planes. Some folks shoot the weapons, and some folks order the weapons. Some folks fix the food, and everyone eats the food at the end of a long day. Nobody can do it all, nobody is expected to do it all, and the world would be a crazy place if people didn't feel good about giving 100% - for the roles they seem suited for.

- Bill

[-Metablade-]

You must think of your opponent not as a man or a woman but as simply an opponent.

Bill Wrote: Other than noticing the obvious because I am human, I'm with you so far.

To give 100% earnest sincere effort to your partner(opponent) is to honor yourself and your opponent. To do anything less is to show disrespect to everything you are working for.

Bill wrote: Why did this bother me so much? Probably because it seemed so "deep" - in a mystical mumbo jumbo way...

Meta: You may see it as mystical mumbo jumbo Bill, but some of us actually live it. (Or attempt to at any rate.)
The difference between a McDojo that isn't worth it's salt (besides fake Senseis and arts) and training that has value, is what you put into it, and the mindset for which you train. I don't have time nor the temperament for half-ass training.
What I am referring to with respect to training is having an earnest and sincere mindset. I don't train just to have a place to "hang out." I train to become a better person. I honor that concept, and therefore I expect the people I train with to do likewise.


Bill Wrote: Throw some weight around. Sweat to see the truth.

Meta: One would be surprised at how earnest training can separate truth from one's own B.S., as well, all of a person's weakness and strengths tend to surface when training earnestly.


Bill wrote:
No... This is counter to a philosophy espoused in an article in JAMA (Journal of Asian Martial Arts) on Systema.

There they talked about going up to BUT NOT BEYOND the level of the student - even while practicing with bladed weapons. Why? Because the last thing you want to do WHEN TEACHING is to program in inappropriate flinch responses.

Most women will not "go easy" on their opponents, so why should men?

Bill wrote: That isn't my experience. My experience is that women find it harder to hit another individual. There are exceptions of course. But when I think about people I have to put fire under to get them to beat the &*%$ out of someone, it's more often women than men. It's just how they are; it's not a value judgment.


Meta: I agree that this may be true in the earlier levels of training, however in higher levels of training, if the student stays that long, the opposite has been true in my experience. At these levels, women are just as tenacious and furious as men. It is a mistake to have a mindset of discounting an opponent as weaker just because they are a woman.
That said, have you even fought a woman better than you?
Have you ever been handed your butt by a woman in a fight?
I have. many many times. And I have no issues with it.
The more I win, the better I get. The more I lose, the better I get.

To me, that is true equality. Everyone equal in the eyes of Sensei.

Bill wrote: If we were all equal, then I'd be a professional baseball player and have as many homers as Big Papi.

Meta: Again, we have a misunderstanding, and it's a bit out of context if I may say.
Ability does not mean equal.
By equal, I mean equal in value as a student, and equal as value of potential for growth and cultivation. With respect to ability and skills obtained, that is why the grading system exists. In other words, I feel that there should be no segregation of training mindsets just because someone is male or female.
That is what I meant by equal.

I may end up hoisting myself by my own petard by posting this, as I have not read the whole thread, but here is what some women martial artists have to say about giving 100% when doing Jigeiko (Battle)
Kendo world has a women's forum too.
http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10459

[Bill Glasheen]

It seems we are beginning to define things more clearly now. Good...

Since you asked...

It is a mistake to have a mindset of discounting an opponent as weaker just because they are a woman.

Indeed. Remember the thread Chef started about the Alaskan state high school wrestling champ? I recall jousting with you a bit on that one...

Girl Power!!!

That said, have you even fought a woman better than you?

A female friend of mine and I got into a friendly competition of grades in biochemistry years back. She kicked my ass!

We subsequently dated for about a year after that. I was smitten by her. We are still friends to this day. She's a professor of rheumatology at the University of Chicago Medical Center, and on the board of the Lupous Foundation (thanks to my oldest sister).

Have you ever been handed your butt by a woman in a fight?

I met a woman at camp whom I worked with a bit on and off through the years. Maria Sophotasiou would be a handful for anyone. I never competed with her, but it would be an awful lot of fun. She competed internationally not just in martial arts, but in basketball. She was on Greece's Olympic Basketball Team. I judged her kata and sparring at the All Okinawa Championships in Atlanta. And she indeed kicked bootie!

I have. many many times. And I have no issues with it.

Good on you. Indeed, there's no room for emotional responses to reality in martial arts.

The more I win, the better I get. The more I lose, the better I get.

Just as long as we qualify this as being about SPORT martial arts, where there are rules, referees, and artificial conditions. It overlaps somewhat with self-defense, but it is not self-defense. It overlaps somewhat with traditional martial arts, but it is not traditional martial arts. It overlaps somewhat with combat, but it is not combat.

Along those lines, I have an interesting anecdote to share.

When I first started teaching the Fuzhou Suparinpei at camp, there was a fairly high demand for it. There was no video, so it was all about what I could do in the teaching mode, and giving handouts. George had me teaching 4 sessions a day for all 3 camp days. If you knew how hard that long form was on your body, you'd know what a bear that was.

Anyhoo, there's a move in the form where you do a Seisan-like "groin strike" while hitting the right supinated arm on your left palm. You subsequently squeeze that right "slapping" palm into a shoken, and then withdraw it with your whole body while "peeling" with the left hand. Well in this one camp where I was teaching it, I showed the particular move. Everybody then did it. Subsequently I heard what sounded like a woman having an orgasm. I turned back with wide eyes to see a middle-aged woman looking like she was in ecstasy. She then stopped, and simply stated "I'm in the middle of a divorce."

I went through the form many times that weekend. Let's just say that someone was quite the multiorgasmic woman. Sally Albright has nothing on her.

I wouldn't want to be her ex and meet her in a dark alley. Hide the blades, hide the firearms, and keep away from her when she's behind the wheel of the Mercedes.

That, sir, is self-defense. Or war maybe...

- Bill

[-Metablade-]

Meta Wrote:
The more I win, the better I get. The more I lose, the better I get.[/quote]

Bill wrote: Just as long as we qualify this as being about SPORT martial arts, where there are rules, referees, and artificial conditions. It overlaps somewhat with self-defense, but it is not self-defense. It overlaps somewhat with traditional martial arts, but it is not traditional martial arts. It overlaps somewhat with combat, but it is not combat.

Meta:
I feel (As it seems so do you) that there is a difference between fighting to survive and fighting to win points. For example, while Kendo technique *could* be used in a real sword fight, one might get killed if they strictly used Kendo Waza. Kenjutsu would be better suited for a real sword fight, (as if that that would ever happen.) so as far as "self-defense" with a sword, it's anecdotal anyway, since there are infinitely more efficient ways for criminals to kill people these days.
But I disagree somewhat in the definition of "combat." To me, win or loss, survival or death exists first in the mind.
One mind goes for death, the other for a point. But the spirit should remain the same.
As Yagyu Munyoshi once wrote: In all endeavors where one is successful, there is no one who does not employ swordsmanship in their mind.

With respect to real self defense training, I also agree that there are many Waza which cannot for reasons of safety, (If this was your point) be practiced full bore without major protection. (Thank goodness for the Redman training suits!)

Kendo is one of those martial arts which falls between sport and reality. Kendo is not a sport, yet it has sports-like qualities. Neither is it purely academic. It is truly quite enigmatic.

I cannot begin to say how it has helped my other more pragmatic training issues with respect to distance, timing, presence, awareness and spirit.
For now, I need to work on my ability to convey properly my thoughts into written words.
I thank you for showing me this.

[AAAhmed46]

Have you ever done kenjutsu?

[-Metablade-]

Have you ever done kenjutsu?

No, in my case, I feel there's no need for me to
pursue it.

Kenjutsu, Kendo, and Iaido are all three very distinct arts, however they are very closely related in many of the mindsets and technique.
Kenjutsu and Iaido have mainly Kata at various speeds, while Kendo has both Kata and Jigeiko (Full speed battle)
Many Kenshi (Kendo practitioners) Study either Iaido or Kenjustsu as well as Kendo.
For me, I may study Iaido later in my training, but for now, Kendo is complex and difficult enough to take up most of my time just learning and re-learning the basics.

Here's another example of the differing styles of Kendo:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QO281dQcOzw

Note that the title says it's a Kenjutsu Shiai, but it's Kendo. Specifically, Nitto-Ryu, which was from the school of Mushasi Miyamoto. (As seen by the two-Shinai) Also, a footnote is that the two Kenshi in the video, while they have good Kiai, are not doing well because the form is really bad. In Kendo, it all about form, which is why mastery is so difficult, and can take up to 50 or more years to do so.

This is an example of good (but not great) Kendo form:
(That said, I am light years behind them)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4XRZF7IqakI

This is even better form:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KWqM5ZR3OpI

(The raised Shinai is another style called "Jodan" Very entertaining to watch.)

This is Kenjutsu:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5a4q61PKtAQ

This is Iaido

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8sAyrQbuZjU

~and this is your brain on Kendo:

[JimHawkins]

Just a side note..

I agree with Meta. I have seen at top levels women often being more "ferocious" than men... The intent, continuity speed and focus often higher than men..

And recently I saw a program that seemed to confirm this. . They said that the latest research indicates that the area in the brain responsible for aggression is much larger in women than in men.. Based on these latest findings they reported that women appear to have a greater capability for aggression than men but that they are also much better at controlling this aggression, where as men are much less able to control theirs...

Makes a lot of sense to me in terms of strategy for females.. Don't fight unless it's absolutely necessary—but when it is necessary go f#%&% berserk...

It also explains why women are often, as Bill says more reluctant to hit, but as Meta commented they can be more ferocious when triggered.. Scary no?