What keeps women off these forums?

[-Metablade-]

So I find it very inaccurate, and needlessly accusatory to label the kind people who have given me their feedback as "cowards." They have little interest in having an impact on these forums - so I think apathetic (simply not caring one way or another) might be a better label.

Meta: If my perception was inaccurate, then I do apologize.
However, isn't it possible that given the initial presentation of the premise regarding this thread could have been seen by many reasonable people as a sort of complaint in itself?

It might also be worthwhile to note that not all the feedback I've received has been from women. It has also been from male teachers who do not encourage their women to join these forums because of their perceptions of the issues I listed in my first post.

Meta: To me, this is disheartening in the sense that there is much valuable information to be had in these forums, and truth be told, the decorum even at its' worst is frankly milder than many of the other more popular forums I frequent, save for perhaps e-budo, which is quite Orwellian in their rule structures if one were to ask me.
But I think what is important here is that there are many forums under the main banner of the Uechi-Ryu forums, and they have varying topics which cater to different mindsets. Like TV channels if you will. Would one say that all TV is bad if one channel displayed something which is not desired for that specific person? For a person to not recommend these forums because one or two of them are not to his personal liking, is simply an ill-informed decision.
Besides, anyone who says these forums are not the greatest is simply a big wuss anyway.

Why would there be such a disconnect between the intentions of the posters and the inferences made by the readers? Why, in particular, would women feel unwelcome due to the general tone the tenor of the discussions?

Meta: Probably because many women who begin M/A training in the first place have low self-esteem, have issues with Men in general, and are apt to see certain posts in the worst possible light. I think these certain people need to get a better grip on reality, grow a thicker skin, especially if they wish to participate in Martial arts.

[Dana Sheets]

many women who begin M/A training in the first place have low self-esteem

Can you cite a reference to support this supposition?

[-Metablade-]

The second sentence is a call to action for a specific outcome. It all depends on if there is a desire for that outcome or not.

Meta: Obviously there is a desire to change something here, otherwise the comments would not have been made at all.
Otherwise, when asked, reasons for not posting may have included, "because I am too busy." or "I have nothing I felt like adding."
The fact that these persons are specifically citing these reasons is because, in fact, they feel that they are dissatisfied, for if they were satisfied, they would post.

If there is no interest in increasing the quantity of women who post on these forums then there is absolutely no need to reflect on why women don't post.

I certainly welcome the opportunity to read thoughts by all people, genders, persuasions and creeds, as it only enriches the venue. So in effect, having more women posters can only add value.
I just can't help but think that the reason people are giving you for not posting may belie other deeper unrelated issues for not posting, and making other parties the "bad guy" is just more convenient.

[-Metablade-]

many women who begin M/A training in the first place have low self-esteem

Can you cite a reference to support this supposition?

Of course not.
This is simply my own opinion, which I base upon 25 years of my own personal observation in the Martial Arts.
That said, there are plenty of Men who start training in M/A to overcome self-esteem issues, but more often than not, many of the women whom I have had the honor of training with over the years have related to me these issues themselves.

[Valkenar]

Women have never posted much anyway no matter what we wrote in the past.

This is just my impression, and it might be off-base but I feel there used to be significantly more women posting. Right now there are three, maybe four women I see post regularly, and when I started posting here I felt like there were several more, though I can't name them.

I definitely have noticed that the anti-women (as I, and at least some women perceive it) posting on these forums has gone up significantly in the past few years. It never used to be acceptable to post erotica, for example.

And as much as we like to pretend the forums are all different, they aren't. It's a UBB forum, with the same userbase. If every forum were on its own website nobody would talk about what goes on in the others, but the fact is that these forums, taken together are the Uechi-Ryu.com forums. Just because Dana's forum may be a respite from what, at times, is a distinctly misogynist atmosphere doesn't mean that I would be comfortable recommending that the Uechi forums to a woman.

I have had women friends look all this over, and not one has implied that what we post about is intentionally offensive_ just good natured banter.

I think we have a case of selection bias. I would suspect that your women friends don't find it offensive because they share your attitudes. And yet all of my female friends would think that thread was sexist and offensive. I probably can't really be close friends with a women whose self-image is compatible with the ideals presented in that thread, and I would guess that you probably couldn't be close friends with a woman who is more in-line with my ideals.

Also, Van, you're a well-respected person and intimidating person. This makes it hard for you to get people to honestly say they don't agree with you than if you were just a regular Joe.

And to address a concept that people often bring up, I think it's preposterous to say that someone should have to be courageous to post on a forum, and if they don't then we should just write them off as a wimp not worthy of our consideration. Have you guys ever spent much time on forums where everyone immediately bashes and insults you for having opinions that go against the grain? You've probably considered it a waste of time. And that's perfectly valid I think. There's a difference between being too cowardly to post in a forum and not wanting to waste your time shouting at the wall, so to speak.

[Dana Sheets]

However, isn't it possible that given the initial presentation of the premise regarding this thread could have been seen by many reasonable people as a sort of complaint in itself?

I am a moderator of a forum. I bring up a wide variety of topics for discussion from a what I hope are a variety of perspectives. I write for a living so I am very clear about how I write and what I write. If I just wanted to rant and rave I certainaly could have framed my posts differently. However, ranting and raving doesn't usually result in productive discussion. I like discussion -- I moderate a discussion forum.

My original post was a reflection of multiple posts made by regular posters who have asked why more women don't respond to threads, in particular threads that are directed at women. So I reflected that question back and posted with it a summary of feedback I've received along with a personal observation.

I make television, print, and online products that reach a variety of audiences. I study and try to be current on how consumers select which media to access and - more recently - in which media to become an active participant. I'm not trying to call anyone on the carpet - I'm trying to better understand why women aren't posting here.

Women are highly, hightly active internet users.

http://www.pewinternet.org/PPF/r/171/report_display.asp
http://www.pewinternet.org/PPF/r/11/report_display.asp

That second link will show you that in 2000 the internet population was 56% male, 41% female and women most often looked for information about health, jobs, and played games after emailing friends and family.

This particular media channel has been identified to me as a media channel that women martial artists (often those who do Uechi) find interesting as a resource but off-putting due to their perceptions of the tone and content of the posts.

[-Metablade-]

So I guess the root issue here is, if we wish to attract more female posters, then more control over content is necessessary to make it more attractive to them.

[MikeK]

Could it be that women in general just aren't interested in martial arts with an even smaller percentage interested in talking about it?

[X]

Mary, next to every man who posts stereotypes on threads like My Ideal Woman stands one or more women behaving in a way that feeds the creation of that opinion. The forum gives you the opportunity to educate them and let them know:
Not every girl’s mother sends her to Cruella Deville’s private academy for witchcraft and bitchery to master self-serving oblivion, manipulation, and talking in code.

Instead, you chose to reinforce their talking in code claims by ducking out of that thread and hopping to a different forum to tell other people that they offended you. It’s puzzling that karate, a discipline intended to instill greater self-confidence, has women classically avoiding direct communication with men engaged in honest discussions. If someone posted a topic and everyone else posted warm, fuzzy, supportive replies, no one would learn anything.

I will make mistakes in the dojo
I will write things I regret
I sure didn’t go knocking on George Mattson’s door to be made to feel more comfortable as a woman around men.

Still, Justin:

is a distinctly misogynist atmosphere

that’s a strong word; hatred of women is not really accurate for any thread I’ve ever read on these forums.

And:

I probably can't really be close friends with a women whose self-image is compatible with the ideals presented in that thread, and I would guess that you probably couldn't be close friends with a woman who is more in-line with my ideals.

your ideals ARE the ideals presented in that thread. You and Meta were two of the primary posters.

I think this is the point everyone is missing: these are open forums waiting for you to create what you want. What types of threads are posted on the Uechi Ryu forums? Why don’t you tell me, ladies. Better yet… show me.

[MikeK]

A few links to forums that are for women's issues to indicate what women possibly want to talk about.

One

Two

Three

Martials arts forums for women. Martial Talk looks to have the most active forum.

MA_One

MA_Two

MA_Three

[AAAhmed46]

...then again all that your complaining about...

Please note that I posted what I did above not as "my thoughts" or "my complaints" - they are opinions from others that have been shared with me.

I think those myths you talk about

Please explain what myths I have cited that you're referring to.

Thanks,
Dana

My point was not insulting, hell im not even trying to be a critic.

the myths:
Like how lots of men...and WOMAN believe they cant condition or be succesful in training.

I other words:
less woman in martial arts=less woman on martial arts message boards.

[Van Canna]

Ms X _ very intelligent post_ but she is very special and erudite.

Justin,

Why is it that what you write always puts me to sleep?

Give it a rest, will you pal?

[AAAhmed46]

Well one thing i noticed on MAP is tihs:



There was a thread on "martial arts babes"

and yes alot of woman complained.


But do you know what happened?


The woman created a thread called

"martial arts hunks"

Filled with similar comments as the 'Babes' thread, but most comments were by woman instead.

Because of this, the tension created by the 'martial arts babes' thread was lessened greatly.




So why isn't there a thread on this forum called:

"The Ideal man?"

I mean....why not?

[Bill Glasheen]

So why isn't there a thread on this forum called:

"The Ideal man?"

I mean....why not?

For the same reason that men's magazines have pictures of women on them, and women's magazines have pictures of... women on them.





With boys now doing poorly in primary and secondary education w.r.t. girls, the book Raising Cain has suddenly become very popular amongst the parents of boys. Kindlin and Thompson implore educators to stop thinking of boys as "defective girls." Similarly, we should probably stop thinking of women as "defective men."

Another thing to consider is the general issue of confrontation and martial arts. Grossman talks a lot about the natural human aversion to confrontation, while martial arts is very much about empowering us to do just that. Some martial websites are more confrontational than others, and some forums in this website are more confrontational than others. And I think it's a pretty well established fact that women on average prefer means other than confrontation to accomplish a task.

Just random thoughts...

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

More material on this general subject. Following is a review in Scientific American of the book Why Gender Matters. Note what I have highlighted in red.

- Bill

When I was a college freshman, a male teaching assistant I sought help from told me matter-of-factly that women were not good at inorganic chemistry. Had I been armed with Why Gender Matters, about how biological differences between the sexes can influence learning and behavior, I could have managed an informed rejoinder to go along with my shocked expression. Sax—a pediatrician and psychologist in the Washington, D.C., area and founder of the National Association for Single-Sex Public Education—hopes to make today’s teachers and parents aware of the science behind differences between girls and boys. He was inspired to write the book as more and more parents brought their young sons to his office in the mid-1990s, seeking an evaluation for attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder. Recalling studies that show boys do not hear as well as girls, Sax felt that for some of the boys he assessed, simply not hearing the teacher led to their inattention, a problem that could be solved by a front-row seat. Although Sax repeatedly makes clear these differences do not limit what either sex can achieve, he does contend they play a valuable role in determining the most effective methods for teaching, disciplining and understanding children and young adults. Using studies as well as anecdotes from his practice and visits to classrooms, he offers advice on such topics as preventing drug abuse and motivating students. In his chapter on aggression, Sax cites research that shows young male primates are much more likely to engage in rough-and-tumble play than females to illustrate why some amount of aggression in boys is normal and why banning "healthy" outlets such as dodgeball—done in his local school district—is misguided. The book is thought-provoking, and Sax explains well the science behind his assertions. His anecdotes are generally instructive, although some are a little too thin to support his points. Sax ends by offering several compelling arguments in support of same-sex education, such as analyses that find girls are more likely to study physics and boys are more likely to study literature in single-sex schools. But whether or not you agree with Sax, his volume is a worthy read for those who care about how best to prepare children for the challenges they face on the path to adulthood.