What keeps women off these forums?
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- Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
What keeps women off these forums?
I thought, since the call goes out from time to time (and recently on Dave's thread) asking for women to post that I would post up some of the reasons that have been shared with me by women for why they don't post openly or regularly on these forums:
-Personifying most, if not all women as money grubbing sex-pots
-Generalizing that all women think and want the same things
-Attacking women who challenge the preconceived notions of what men "know" women are thinking
-Calling attempts by women to dispel myths as "trying to be too PC"
-a dismissal of any critiques of threads that debase women as being rooted "only in jest" or "just for fun" and claiming that the content of the thread doesn't reflect the actual thinking of any of the contributing posters.
-posting extremely suggestive. sexual images of women
-writing or quoting needlessly vulgar, sexual language to discuss biological responses to conflict and stress
-a perception that women who train are treated as jokes unless they reach a level of being semi-professional or professional
FWIW I do read and sometimes write on several other martial arts forums and compared to most of those forums there is a very low representation of women on these forums.
One thing I see on these forums that I don't see on others are a fairly regular churn of threads that discuss eroticisms and stereotypes about women in a very sexual way.
-Personifying most, if not all women as money grubbing sex-pots
-Generalizing that all women think and want the same things
-Attacking women who challenge the preconceived notions of what men "know" women are thinking
-Calling attempts by women to dispel myths as "trying to be too PC"
-a dismissal of any critiques of threads that debase women as being rooted "only in jest" or "just for fun" and claiming that the content of the thread doesn't reflect the actual thinking of any of the contributing posters.
-posting extremely suggestive. sexual images of women
-writing or quoting needlessly vulgar, sexual language to discuss biological responses to conflict and stress
-a perception that women who train are treated as jokes unless they reach a level of being semi-professional or professional
FWIW I do read and sometimes write on several other martial arts forums and compared to most of those forums there is a very low representation of women on these forums.
One thing I see on these forums that I don't see on others are a fairly regular churn of threads that discuss eroticisms and stereotypes about women in a very sexual way.
Last edited by Dana Sheets on Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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- JimHawkins
- Posts: 2101
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:21 am
- Location: NYC
No so much on your forum though Dana... no?
From what I've seen any woman's opinion would be more than welcome, especially on those topics that call for a woman's viewpoint...
Most of the posts on these forums, at least the ones I have read, are from the same small group of people--more men than women, but a small group, so there are lots of men not posting too here and elsewhere.. I have found this to be the case on many boards, the few are those who post, the many are those who read and write GEM..
From what I've seen any woman's opinion would be more than welcome, especially on those topics that call for a woman's viewpoint...
Most of the posts on these forums, at least the ones I have read, are from the same small group of people--more men than women, but a small group, so there are lots of men not posting too here and elsewhere.. I have found this to be the case on many boards, the few are those who post, the many are those who read and write GEM..
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
Dont worry Dana.
Thing is, it seems most woman stay away from martial arts.
Accept maybe TKD.
Hell on BS.com there are only two woman that post.
And BS.com is a very very popular and active martial arts forum, perhaps the most popular.
martialartsplanet.com has quite a few woman posters.
But there are ten times as many male posters.
Granted the two woman on BS.com are very well respected on that board, tried and tested.
But only two(then again all that your complaining about is done TEN TIMES as much on BULLSHIDO, so that may explain the number....)
I think those myths you talk about just scare woman away from martial arts, thus less woman posting on martial arts forums.
And the fact is that, the fact there are few woman on this message board simply is another sample of this.
Thing is, it seems most woman stay away from martial arts.
Accept maybe TKD.
Hell on BS.com there are only two woman that post.
And BS.com is a very very popular and active martial arts forum, perhaps the most popular.
martialartsplanet.com has quite a few woman posters.
But there are ten times as many male posters.
Granted the two woman on BS.com are very well respected on that board, tried and tested.
But only two(then again all that your complaining about is done TEN TIMES as much on BULLSHIDO, so that may explain the number....)
I think those myths you talk about just scare woman away from martial arts, thus less woman posting on martial arts forums.
And the fact is that, the fact there are few woman on this message board simply is another sample of this.
- Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Please note that I posted what I did above not as "my thoughts" or "my complaints" - they are opinions from others that have been shared with me.AAAhmed46 wrote:...then again all that your complaining about...
Please explain what myths I have cited that you're referring to.AAAhmed46 wrote:I think those myths you talk about
Thanks,
Dana
Did you show compassion today?
-
- Posts: 283
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- Location: Mansfield, MA USA
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Dana:
When you encounter the type of negative post you described, why not call the poster on it? My guess is that a lot of what is found to be offensive isn't necessarily intended as offensive. That doesn't excuse it, but education is required so that well meaning participants can look inward and decide if they would change how they act on the forum.
And there you have my free unsolicited advice. (Worth every penny I hope.)
Sincerely,
Norm Abrahamson
When you encounter the type of negative post you described, why not call the poster on it? My guess is that a lot of what is found to be offensive isn't necessarily intended as offensive. That doesn't excuse it, but education is required so that well meaning participants can look inward and decide if they would change how they act on the forum.
And there you have my free unsolicited advice. (Worth every penny I hope.)
Sincerely,
Norm Abrahamson
- -Metablade-
- Posts: 1195
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:54 pm
Any time when people of both genders congregate to exchange ideas, invariably there will be some people who take offense to shared ideas, thoughts and comments no matter what they may be. That's just life!
But they are just that, thoughts.
A reader can select to read them or not read them, add comments to them, debate them or not.
If the thoughts break the established rules, then the poster should be admonished, but other than that, it's fair game.
In general, Martial arts is overwhelmingly dominated by the male gender, this is a fact.
It would serve certain individuals well to accept this, deal with it, and mainly, to cease whining about it.
This forum is about fighting arts. Not Gardening class.
People have differing views on all the things under the sun. That is the beauty of diversity.
If a person can't deal with various opinions made on a simple forum, how can they expect to combat real violence?
And that's just my opinion, yours may differ.
But they are just that, thoughts.
A reader can select to read them or not read them, add comments to them, debate them or not.
If the thoughts break the established rules, then the poster should be admonished, but other than that, it's fair game.
In general, Martial arts is overwhelmingly dominated by the male gender, this is a fact.
It would serve certain individuals well to accept this, deal with it, and mainly, to cease whining about it.
This forum is about fighting arts. Not Gardening class.
People have differing views on all the things under the sun. That is the beauty of diversity.
If a person can't deal with various opinions made on a simple forum, how can they expect to combat real violence?
And that's just my opinion, yours may differ.
There's a bit of Metablade in all of us.
To save time I just gathered all the various quotes....they may belong to you, they may not....but I did want to respond to a few items.
Exactly….and have you ever asked yourself WHY?????Thing is, it seems most woman stay away from martial arts.
http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?t=16582I think those myths you talk about just scare woman away from martial arts, thus less woman posting on martial arts forums.
I found the above-thread to be particularly and extremely offensive. I think that if you asked the women who post and read these forums you would get the same response. It was a real eye-opener of just exactly what some men who post on these forums think about women in general. I not saying that's a bad thing. I am saying though that the blinders have come off and I now view certain males who post on these forum from a totally different perspective.My guess is that a lot of what is found to be offensive isn't necessarily intended as offensive.
I personally can’t recall any individuals “whining” about the fact that martial arts is overwhelmingly dominated by the male gender (and I've been posting and reading for a few years now). I personally think that the martials arts are male-dominated as a challenge and a way to better myself on a number of levels. So, please give an example of this? I would like to see some specific examples of your definition of whining.In general, Martial arts is overwhelmingly dominated by the male gender, this is a fact. It would serve certain individuals well to accept this, deal with it, and mainly, to cease whining about it.
Just because it is about fighting arts does not mean that we can’t have civil discussion and positive input. I don’t come to these forums to fight, I come to learn…whether it be self-preservation or not. And no, not all forums here are about the “fighting arts” Meta. They deal with a variety of topics posted by a variety of individuals. I was taught that a martial artist should have a variety of interests...not just to hurt but to heal, not to just destroy but to create.This forum is about fighting arts. Not Gardening class.
I seem to manage quite well. I’m sure there are others.If a person can't deal with various opinions made on a simple forum, how can they expect to combat real violence?
Apparently it does…..And that's just my opinion, yours may differ.
- -Metablade-
- Posts: 1195
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:54 pm
Meta: If you see entering a male-dominated martial arts field as one of the ways to challenge and better yourself, then I applaud your courage and fortitude.Mary S wrote:
Meta Wrote:I personally can’t recall any individuals “whining” about the fact that martial arts is overwhelmingly dominated by the male gender (and I've been posting and reading for a few years now). I personally think that the martials arts are male-dominated as a challenge and a way to better myself on a number of levels. So, please give an example of this? I would like to see some specific examples of your definition of whining.In general, Martial arts is overwhelmingly dominated by the male gender, this is a fact. It would serve certain individuals well to accept this, deal with it, and mainly, to cease whining about it.
As far as an example of whining about some of the things that males can and do, and do say, this thread is a perfect example. Speaking of which, as Dana had mentioned, the introduction of this thread was in response to "others" who felt this way, and it is obvious that they did not wish to come forth personally, but rather hide behind a moderator to express their views. I find this to be a rather cowardly action, regardless of gender. If one has issue with someone or something that is written on these forums, one should have the fortitude to come forth and confront it. (For example, as you are doing.)
Unless it is a personal attack, which isn't allowed anyway.
Meta Wrote:
This forum is about fighting arts. Not Gardening class.
Meta: On the particular issue at hand, I don't see where the discussion wasn't civil. Can you provide an example of this?Mary S wrote: Just because it is about fighting arts does not mean that we can’t have civil discussion and positive input.
Is a particular person being abused here?
Also, a particular individual's views on "positive input" and others' may often and do differ. That is the nature of discussion and dialogue.
Meta: Who said anything about fighting or self-preservation on the forums? Discussion? yes, debate? by all means! But to fight? Why, that's just trolling, which also isn't allowed.Mary S wrote: I don’t come to these forums to fight, I come to learn…whether it be self-preservation or not.
On the subject of learning: Are you not learning?
Meta: True enough, and this proves my point even further in that a variety of ideas is where the forum gets it's strength. Be that as it may however, you must admit, that if the main focus of the forum was not the Uechi Ryu and Martial arts community and topics, you probably would not be here, so let's be honest.Mary S wrote: And no, not all forums here are about the “fighting arts” Meta. They deal with a variety of topics posted by a variety of individuals.
Meta: I would hold those ideals to be true in just about any endeavor, not just martial arts, so I fail to see the reasoning as it pertains to the issue at hand.Mary S wrote: I was taught that a martial artist should have a variety of interests...not just to hurt but to heal, not to just destroy but to create.
If a person can't deal with various opinions made on a simple forum, how can they expect to combat real violence?
Meta: Logically, the fact that this thread even exists shows that this is not quite the case.Mary S wrote: I seem to manage quite well. I’m sure there are others.
My point being is that it is up to each moderator to govern what they deem acceptable posts or not. When a member enters a moderators forum, they are in hers/his house so to speak, and it speaks to arrogance to not respect that, whatever it entails, even if one does not agree.
If we say for example that "Women are not posting openly or regularly on these forums." What we really are saying is: "You need to change your content or decorum to make it fell more comfortable for women to post openly."
I submit that it is not up to the forum moderator or it's members to do so, rather it is the personal responsibility of a poster themselves, who do not feel comfortable to post to deal with their own issues on the matter.
No one forces a person to make a post, or not make a post on this forum.
To suggest so, is just so much victimization mentality claptrap.
There's a bit of Metablade in all of us.
Mary,
The only reason I even bother to post on this thread is because you referenced a thread on my forum.
Not that I need to justify what I do and how I do it on my forum, but the articles are from this:
Primal Urges
By staff writer Nathan DeGraaf (Wed nights)
And so it went to create some new interest in general conversations, not to vilify or offend women.
Again, not that I need to give any explanations, but I was born and raised in another culture where these discussions are welcomed by intelligent and progressive women. mostly of European descent.
To put it bluntly, I couldn’t care less whether or not women post or don’t post on any forum, or what you or anybody else think of the posters/moderator.
Women have never posted much anyway no matter what we wrote in the past.
And like Meta said, if any woman doesn’t like a thread or a post, she can certainly ‘turn the page’ like in a magazine she happens to pick off the shelf.
I have never read anything 'offensive' posted on the women's forum that I can recall_ not intentionally anyway.
And I will not allow the guests on my forum to be vilified by any man or woman.
I have had women friends look all this over, and not one has implied that what we post about is intentionally offensive_ just good natured banter.
One particular woman stated that the women who feel ‘slighted’ may well have unresolved self esteem issues.
And this is not to point a finger at you or anyone else who is a woman poster.
Enjoy life; it is not a very long one.
The only reason I even bother to post on this thread is because you referenced a thread on my forum.
Not that I need to justify what I do and how I do it on my forum, but the articles are from this:
Primal Urges
By staff writer Nathan DeGraaf (Wed nights)
This was the message mostly missed. Bet Meta could say much about this.A showcase of one male's pathetic attempts to fight his basic instincts and grow up, despite the fact that the very idea makes him sick.
This man recently earned a BA in Creative Writing from the University of South Florida, where he is now seriously considering getting a masters degree as well. On weekday evenings, he can typically be found at any one of a number of North Tampa bars. On weekends, he typically cannot be found. When not drinking, fishing, watching sports, or having sex, Nathan likes to read, play the harmonica, and show up for work. Throughout the course of his life, he has been arrested six times because, as his father has often said, "the kid is ##### stupid."
And so it went to create some new interest in general conversations, not to vilify or offend women.
Again, not that I need to give any explanations, but I was born and raised in another culture where these discussions are welcomed by intelligent and progressive women. mostly of European descent.
To put it bluntly, I couldn’t care less whether or not women post or don’t post on any forum, or what you or anybody else think of the posters/moderator.
Women have never posted much anyway no matter what we wrote in the past.
And like Meta said, if any woman doesn’t like a thread or a post, she can certainly ‘turn the page’ like in a magazine she happens to pick off the shelf.
I have never read anything 'offensive' posted on the women's forum that I can recall_ not intentionally anyway.
And I will not allow the guests on my forum to be vilified by any man or woman.
I have had women friends look all this over, and not one has implied that what we post about is intentionally offensive_ just good natured banter.
One particular woman stated that the women who feel ‘slighted’ may well have unresolved self esteem issues.
And this is not to point a finger at you or anyone else who is a woman poster.
Enjoy life; it is not a very long one.
Van
- Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Everyone should know that not one single person who has shared any of the views I posted above has ever asked me to do anything about it. They were simply cited as reasons why individuals choose not to post.but rather hide behind a moderator to express their views.
Since there are questions, from time to time, about why there aren't more women posters I thought it might be of interest to folks to see some of the reasons I've been given from time to time.
So I find it very inaccurate, and needlessly accusatory to label the kind people who have given me their feedback as "cowards." They have little interest in having an impact on these forums - so I think apathetic (simply not caring one way or another) might be a better label.
It might also be worthwhile to note that not all the feedback I've received has been from women. It has also been from male teachers who do not encourage their women to join these forums because of their perceptions of the issues I listed in my first post.
And while I am known to keep things pretty clean on my forum and to keep most discussions at a level where I'd be comfortable having youth read them (which is basically the same level of polite conversation I use in the dojo) many of the disucssions on these forums use much stronger language and references. And it is also true that anyone is free to select to read or not read from any forum - that goes without saying.
I have often shared comments I've received from women that are positive about these forums and why they support them (either by posting on them or by reading them and using the information or sharing it with others) so in this case I am pointing out the reasons I've been given why women do not post on these forums.
It would be careless to dismiss too quickly what I've cited without meaningful reflection.
Why would there be such a disconnect between the intentions of the posters and the inferences made by the readers? Why, in particular, would women feel unwelcome due to the general tone the tenor of the discussions?
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- Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
The first is an observation, the second is a request for action. I find the two statements to be completely unrelated.-Metablade- wrote:If we say for example that "Women are not posting openly or regularly on these forums." What we really are saying is: "You need to change your content or decorum to make it fell more comfortable for women to post openly."
If we are saying women are not posting regularly on these forums that is a simple, quantifiable fact. Facts don't really lead to an outcome of any kind.
The second sentence is a call to action for a specific outcome. It all depends on if there is a desire for that outcome or not. If there is no interest in increasing the quantity of women who post on these forums then there is absolutely no need to reflect on why women don't post.
However several male and female posters have asked why there aren't more women posting. So I've submitted some reasons that have been shared with me.
Did you show compassion today?