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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:00 am 
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This was posted over on the fightingarts.com forum. I think it strongly echoes something my teacher would often emphasize.

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For a while now, I had been questioning my training. I questioned whether or not it was benefitting me or hurting since the style I practice now, WTF TKD, doesn't allow me to use my upper body techniques (trapping, parries, head strikes, etc.) like I have in the past. I have had to radically alter my style of fighting to fit what I was doing now noticing that as I did, my defense was not as sharp, my hands suffered from lack of use, and my overall technique was just sloppy. I felt my art was failing me.

Then I trained with someone who is a really hard fighter, also WTF TKD, who was displaying all the skills I felt I used to have and using them quite effectively. Then I woke up. It isn't the style failing me, it was me failing the style. TKD has everything that every other style has to offer when it comes to strong self defense but you need to TRAIN it. Just because you do a certain style of sparring in class doesn't mean you do not train your other techniques too.

I got off my butt and starting practicing as much of the TKD curriculum (sp) as I could as taken from the Kuk Ki Won website and found that my skills, power, and technique have all significantly increased. They are at least back to where I felt they were strong and perhaps a little more so.

Next time you question your art, question yourself. Are you personally working as hard as you need to in order to make the art benefit you? Are you putting into it all the effort necessary to bring out the best in your techniques? Are you using all the weapons available and at your disposal within the art? If not, then question yourself and your motivation, not the art.

Seems pretty straight forward but you would be surprised how many people actually forget that lessons at the dojo/dojang can't possibly cover the entire wealth of knowledge the art has to offer. Explore your art and find out what you are missing that is within its scope and then apply that knowledge before you start to question your art.

For what it's worth,

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:39 am 
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Lets not forget...WHY are you training? What are your goals?


Is your training helping you reach your goals as you desire?

Do you WANT to master this art? Or do you want to find tune another skill?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:49 am 
Quote:
TKD has everything that every other style has to offer when it comes to strong self defense but you need to TRAIN it. Just because you do a certain style of sparring in class doesn't mean you do not train your other techniques too.


classic denial , no style has all the answers , no person has all the answers

its about goals and objectives

lots of important words in there








Quote:
Just because you do a certain style of sparring in class doesn't mean you do not train your other techniques too.


yes it does this is self evident , this means you do in class what you do in class , dont confuse your training for the style though , dont blame the style for what you do in class .

this should be obvious , it is not your failure , but your training regime that needs examining(maybe your failure by not examining your training) , by doing it in your own time you are skirting the problem , you are not addressing it .

Quote:
I got off my butt and starting practicing as much of the TKD curriculum (sp) as I could as taken from the Kuk Ki Won website and found that my skills, power, and technique have all significantly increased. They are at least back to where I felt they were strong and perhaps a little more so.


so not the style but the training in class , the curriculum addresses it but class does not ?



Quote:
Seems pretty straight forward but you would be surprised how many people actually forget that lessons at the dojo/dojang can't possibly cover the entire wealth of knowledge the art has to offer. Explore your art and find out what you are missing that is within its scope and then apply that knowledge before you start to question your art.


Once again confusing the training with the style , they advocate exploring the art to find the answers , and in the very next breath advocate not questioning the training or art , this is a complete contradiction , only by questioning and exploring does anyone understand .

all in all seems very confused .

just train harder , it will come , go deeper ......

going deeper means questioning things folks :roll:

you should question your style , you should tear it apart , the only thing to be scared of is the truth , and you may discover a passion for the real knowledge discovered in the process . You will love your style anew


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:43 pm 
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Stryke wrote:
classic denial , no style has all the answers , no person has all the answers


I think your reading is much the same as mine. To me it came across as a person on the cusp of moving beyond style loyalty but subsequently finds an excuse to backslide. IMO, to really appreciate something you have to move beyond loyalty and onto a position where you can appreciate it for what it really is, a real thing with both weaknesses and strengths, not an imaginary thing that is perfect and complete. Because the alternatives also have strengths and weaknesses, one comes to a better appreciation for their own style. I suspect that a lot of Uechi people don't really appreciate how great the style is because they begin to suspect it doesn't have all the answers, and yet they don't know enough about other styles. For example, one may notice the deep and often forward-leaning stances of other styles and ask whether we ought to be using more of these stances. Do these folks know something that Uechi folks don't? But read Funakoshi's 17th precept.

http://jkaconn.com/nijukun.htm

It puts the question in a completely different light.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:07 pm 
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Fedor has all the answers.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:15 am 
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Quote:
Next time you question your art, question yourself. Are you personally working as hard as you need to in order to make the art benefit you? Are you putting into it all the effort necessary to bring out the best in your techniques? Are you using all the weapons available and at your disposal within the art? If not, then question yourself and your motivation, not the art.


It's all a part of her personal journey and I think she was in a good place at the time of the writing. You have to understand what you are studying before you can see it for what it is.

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Next time you question your art, question yourself.

Of course this also works the other way. I questioned what my rank meant and did I have the skills and knowledge that I should have for that rank. While trying to find the answers to those questions I hit Ha and eventually Ri for that group and moved on. I broke with what they were doing and eventually separated from the style. It's something that I will go through several more times.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:45 am 
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For example, one may notice the deep and often forward-leaning stances of other styles and ask whether we ought to be using more of these stances. Do these folks know something that Uechi folks don't? But read Funakoshi's 17th precept.


good Luck finding any evidence of Funakoshi doing a deep leaning stance

great post , I agree most who dont look outside never really understand what they`ve got .


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:06 am 
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How did you get to the point where you were able to stand on a different mountain and look back at your original style?

Where and when does perspective shift?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:44 am 
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I guess for me the answer is simple. I put on a white belt and started climbing another mountain. If you do this, chances are you will be challenged time and time again to assimilate the differences and the arguments made for various practices. The person telling you that this way (the way they do it) is better than that way (the way you just did it, your "old" way) is probably not aware that they just contradicted another style of karate, but unlike them, you have to get to the bottom of it in your own mind. Sorting it out almost always yields an increased appreciation for both ways.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:47 am 
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FEDOR HAS ALL THE ANSWERS!!!!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:09 am 
Quote:
I guess for me the answer is simple. I put on a white belt and started climbing another mountain. If you do this, chances are you will be challenged time and time again to assimilate the differences and the arguments made for various practices. The person telling you that this way (the way they do it) is better than that way (the way you just did it, your "old" way) is probably not aware that they just contradicted another style of karate, but unlike them, you have to get to the bottom of it in your own mind. Sorting it out almost always yields an increased appreciation for both ways.


I agree entirely .

On a more philisophical level , I always considered the ultimate lesson or maybe more acurately tool of MA to be self responsibility(in terms of revelation of self and reality) .

At some point rhetoric must become rhetoric , ability or lack of must be self evident , and you must become a individual not a stylist , a carpenter would not call himself a hammer .

if you find yourself quoting maxims to motivate , doing the same thing to try acheive/grasp the same thing , this must become apparent .

does the art create the artist ?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:22 am 
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So how long...

Spend three years following a teacher and then strike out on your own.
Never follow a teacher.


How do you learn how to train something long enough to make it work instead of throwing it out too early.

In Pat McCarthy's group the students a given a little book. For their kihon (basic) techniques they are expected to practice each 10,000 times one their own (if it is something like a break fall) or with a partner (if it is something like a block, throw, or lock.) Mr. McCarthy said that his teacher told him that after 10,000 repetitions you will no longer have questions about how the technique is supposed to work.

Is that too much "blind following" to ask of a student or to model for students as a method of learning?

How do we ensure that our students go an inch wide and a mile deep instead of a mile wide and an inch deep? How did our teachers foster that in us?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:56 am 
Why does striking/branching out mean your on your own ?

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How do you learn how to train something long enough to make it work instead of throwing it out too early.


I never throw anything out . Just file it away as part of the puzzle , if it`s in the kata I will get to ten thousand eventually .

Quote:
Spend three years following a teacher and then strike out on your own.
Never follow a teacher.


everyones my teacher , and I journey with them , I`ve never signed up to follow anyone , I respect and learn from those clearly in the know but I`m not any kind of disciple .

I respect everyones opinion mostly , but unfortunately they cant be all right , so I must trust myself to do the best I can in judgement , and be secure that I can always change my mind .


Quote:
In Pat McCarthy's group the students a given a little book. For their kihon (basic) techniques they are expected to practice each 10,000 times one their own (if it is something like a break fall) or with a partner (if it is something like a block, throw, or lock.) Mr. McCarthy said that his teacher told him that after 10,000 repetitions you will no longer have questions about how the technique is supposed to work.

Is that too much "blind following" to ask of a student or to model for students as a method of learning?


it`s clealry with another person or in varying ways , that is expirementation and learning , I dont see how this is relavent to blind faith . it`s not striking the air just so ten thousand times is it ? , application is key IMHO trial and error .

practicing & applying technique is the best way to understand .

Quote:
How do we ensure that our students go an inch wide and a mile deep instead of a mile wide and an inch deep? How did our teachers foster that in us?


By showing the common principles to as much material as we can , the mechanics and how it is all related , understanding of why something works rather than how it works , and above all by setting a positive example of functionality .

this way hopefully they will be inspired and not wasting there time when they could learn more elsewhere .

Isnt that very question just another way of stating alls in Sanchin , or more to my thinking , all the mechanics are here explore how they work ....

I think sometimes you need to go wide to go deep . To understand the commonality .

just some thoughts , hope you dont mind my philosophicall ramblings .


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:11 pm 
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All ramblings on training are welcome. I'll ramble too...

Have to go wide to go deep....hmmmm....

If you're learning techniques then you'll need to go very wide before you can connect the dots on your own. If you explore fundamental principles then you can attach movements to any of those principles.

A big catalog of techniques is more difficult to master than a slim booklet of principles.

I think the width of knowledge comes with the study of anatomy, human psychology, stress response, historical people attached to a certain tradition, the context of the development and evolution of arts, etc.

You can go deeply into any of those elements.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:15 am 
Absolutely I think we agree .

Quote:
If you're learning techniques then you'll need to go very wide before you can connect the dots on your own. If you explore fundamental principles then you can attach movements to any of those principles.


8) :D , thats why principles are so important , not techniques ... principles and mechanics , If you have the principles you should have no trouble mastering the big bucketload of techniques .


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