expectations for training

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Postby jorvik » Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:23 pm

Quote
"
If you're learning techniques then you'll need to go very wide before you can connect the dots on your own. If you explore fundamental principles then you can attach movements to any of those principles"

Look at Musashi, he killed loads of folks, with very little formal training..then spent the rest of his life trying to figure out the principles that he used................I've learned a lot of ( what I would say was ) very profound stuff lately :D ...and the guy who taught it me is very good at what he does..but I know folks who would kill him in a Nano-Second in a streetfight :lol: ....guess you have always got to comeback to a constant reality.a lot of folks get so tied up in what they do that they forget this.look at all the whirling-dervish aikidoka :roll:
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Postby MikeK » Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:03 pm

Dana Sheets wrote:If you're learning techniques then you'll need to go very wide before you can connect the dots on your own. If you explore fundamental principles then you can attach movements to any of those principles.

A big catalog of techniques is more difficult to master than a slim booklet of principles.


Correct, but once the fight begins you better be pretty good at the techniques and have enough good ones to get the job done. IMO what principles do is help you recognize how things work allowing you to pick up different techniques and apply them in a shorter amount of time.

I think the width of knowledge comes with the study of anatomy, human psychology, stress response, historical people attached to a certain tradition, the context of the development and evolution of arts, etc.

You can go deeply into any of those elements.


Very good point Dana, but if you go too wide and too deep then you run the risk of diluting your training. We may have to be a little choosy in what we study and what we just get a small exposure to.

How do you learn how to train something long enough to make it work instead of throwing it out too early.

I believe by training something new in as realistic way as possible is the best way to go. So far it seems to be working with the gentleman that I'm helping to train. Today we were working on countering some chokes, having your air supply cut off works wonders on learning how to make a technique work. :wink:

Spend three years following a teacher and then strike out on your own.
Never follow a teacher.


I don't think you can put a time limit on it, but I do think the relationship you have with the person teaching does matter. Is the relationship of master and indentured servant or a matter of trainer/coach and trainee/athlete? I've met people that should have broken with their "master" years ago but felt some vague obligation to them even though they were being stifled.
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Postby Dana Sheets » Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:47 pm

Well you bring up a good point. What does a student owe a teacher?

If the teacher opens their mind and their heart and offers their knowledge and understanding (knowing that, being human, nothing will be perfect) is there, then, any debt born by the student?

If money changes hands is the debt paid on a montly basis?

If no money changes hands?
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Postby MikeK » Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:05 am

Dana, Depends on the teacher and student. I'm being trained by a good friend who has great experience as a teacher and very impressive real world experience. He wants to pass along what he knows about martial arts and life to someone, so he trains me for free with the only string attached that I one day do the same. That's it, and one day if I have something to share I will do the same. This arrangement has also made it hard for me (spoiled) to go to most traditional schools and get into the entire "yes sensei" thing.

If someone opens their mind and their heart and offers their knowledge and understanding and money changes hands then that is the debt paid in full. Both parties can walk away at anytime with no further obligation, as that's the choice both parties made.
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Postby Dana Sheets » Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:49 pm

Interesting.

So back to why I posted the original article. At one point during my brown belt years I asked my teacher "why aren't you showing 20 applications for each technique every class?" and he countered with "why aren't you showing me your applications for the kata?"

So my teacher, at that time, showed me one model of how to get up the mountain -- which is roughly: I'll show you one way to do something, and then it is up to you to find the 10,000 variations and figure out how to make those work for you.

Was my teacher shirking his responsibility? In my opinion, not at all. He was not giving in to my desire at the time to be spoon fed in my development. Kinda goes back to my favorite stumping point of self-efficacy.

He wanted to make sure that I could train without him in the room. And that lesson has come to be a very important one. Now, when I train and teach, I try to make sure that the students aren't training to make me happy. Which is something Rory has written about in the past. I try very hard to not be the reason they show up at the dojo. Because if that's the case, than someday - when I stop coming, so might they.

So what I got out of that original post was a reminder of a lesson from my teacher that a teacher is not supposed to hold your hand all the way through the journey. A good karate teacher, IMO, shows you how to train. Whatever you choose to train after that, be it martial arts, music, poetry, business, religion, community service, or anything else -- will see your development enhanced because of the self-efficacy learned during your karate training.

So as much as my teacher taught me about Uechi, he also helped to teach me how to teach myself. And it is not the only thing I learned...but I think it one of the most important.
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Postby fivedragons » Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:03 am

Dana, your last post made me think of something that happened several times.

After teaching me a form, my teacher would look at me, perform a small section, and ask me what I thought that particular movement could mean.

I would answer with a shrug, and say that it looked pretty much like so and so...

And then he would smile, shake his head and say "well if you don't want to kill him you can......"

I used to think to myself "Isn't this supposed to be a martial art? What does he mean if I don't want to kill them?"

Now, I really wish I listened and learned all the information he was passing on to me about how to protect myself or others without having to destroy another human being. :?

I really thought I knew what he should teach me, and I thought I would make him proud by showing that I could be so "deadly", but really I was a total idiot. You see he had been through more than most people, learned how to deal with his demons, and was teaching me something more valuable than I could understand or appreciate at the time.

But I thought I knew better than he did, what he wanted me to learn. :?
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Postby jorvik » Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:05 pm

surely the whole point of going to a martial arts club is to learn martial arts?
If I took driving lessons then I wouldn't expect the instructor to tell me to get into the car and show him how to drive.
With kata, the folks who invented them weren't rocket scientists, they didn't know a heckuva lot about body mechanics, medicine etc.....and they didn't put subliminal messages in the moves. If you have to invent new moves for a kata, then why don't you dispence with the teacher and save yourself some money, because you must be at least as good as he is :lol:
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Postby fivedragons » Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:47 pm

Originally posted by JorviK;

"With kata, the folks who invented them weren't rocket scientists, they didn't know a heckuva lot about body mechanics, medicine etc.....and they didn't put subliminal messages in the moves."

I disagree.

I didn't have to invent new moves for the kata, they were already there. They were there before anyone ever made a kata for them. They have always been there.
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Postby jorvik » Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:39 pm

Quote
I didn't have to invent new moves for the kata, they were already there. They were there before anyone ever made a kata for them. They have always been there."


Do you mean like jet planes and computers have always been there :lol:
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Postby MikeK » Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:43 pm

He wanted to make sure that I could train without him in the room. And that lesson has come to be a very important one. Now, when I train and teach, I try to make sure that the students aren't training to make me happy. Which is something Rory has written about in the past. I try very hard to not be the reason they show up at the dojo. Because if that's the case, than someday - when I stop coming, so might they.


I don't think there is anything wrong with people showing up to a school to study under a good instructor, and then moving on once that instructor leaves. Now what happens to them after they leave is another story. Can they tell a silk purse from a sows ear when it comes to picking their next instructor, do they have the desire and ability to continue training and have they been taught to pass on what they've already learned?

Now, when I train and teach, I try to make sure that the students aren't training to make me happy. Which is something Rory has written about in the past.

Dana, how do you go about that? Most modern traditional karate schools are all about making one or more people happy in order to gain rank. How are you countering that?
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Postby MikeK » Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:46 pm

jorvik wrote:Quote
I didn't have to invent new moves for the kata, they were already there. They were there before anyone ever made a kata for them. They have always been there."


Do you mean like jet planes and computers have always been there :lol:


Wow, I actually agree with Ray! In order to learn on our own we have to be shown an awful lot in detail. I think the desire for self discovery is great, but the desire to learn more by whatever means is even better.
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Postby jorvik » Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:25 pm

Mike
that must be a first 8O .guess it really is Christmas :lol:
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Postby fivedragons » Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:39 pm

No, I mean like arms and legs have always been there. Merry Christmas. :D
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Postby jorvik » Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:05 pm

Yeah, :D .I know what you meant :lol: ..Merry christmas :wink:
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Postby mhosea » Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:37 am

MikeK wrote:In order to learn on our own we have to be shown an awful lot in detail. I think the desire for self discovery is great, but the desire to learn more by whatever means is even better.


I agree. I'm no expert, so FWIW, I'm also a little leery of the idea that there SHOULD be a virtually unlimited supply of substantially different personal interpretations of kata. I don't think kata is a Rorschach test.
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