What is invalid in the Uechi kata?

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Postby MikeK » Sun Dec 24, 2006 4:33 am

Marcus,
I'm not sure that many of the applications of kata work against someone bigger, meaner and more desperate than we are. I'll even go so far to say that a portion of the techniques have us as the big dog in the fight and we have at least two of the three previously mentioned attributes along with being better trained and more devious.

I'm also not really talking about a technical stalemate but being quickly taken out. And it does boil down at least partially to as you said controlling the entry and applying the technique. This is rather easy to do against an untrained person or someone who is badly trained, but against someone who really knows what they're doing it becomes very hard to do.



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Postby Stryke » Sun Dec 24, 2006 4:40 am

I'm not sure that many of the applications of kata work against someone bigger, meaner and more desperate than we are. I'll even go so far to say that a portion of the techniques have us as the big dog in the fight and we have at least two of the three previously mentioned attributes along with being better trained and more devious.


Mike if they dont meet that criteria than IMHO there not martial arts .

if you have the other attribute advantages these techniques would simply be not necessary .

if the applications arent simple brutal and effective enouh to be employed against someone bigger meaner and more desperate than there irrelevant to self protection .

if the strategy and mechanics of the movement dont create advantage then you need to look again or look elsewhere .

any physicaly dominant person can fight well with little else but will .

I'm also not really talking about a technical stalemate but being quickly taken out. And it does boil down at least partially to as you said controlling the entry and applying the technique. This is rather easy to do against an untrained person or someone who is badly trained, but against someone who really knows what they're doing it becomes very hard to do.




thats the defintion of skilled Mike , that is often a technical and learned ability . A developed attribute anyhow maybe language is the problem here .

but of course just my perspective , I love disagreement , it broadens my learning .

Dominating positon and force reception .


a most overlooked aspect IMHO
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Postby AAAhmed46 » Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:41 am

Stryke wrote:
I'm not sure that many of the applications of kata work against someone bigger, meaner and more desperate than we are. I'll even go so far to say that a portion of the techniques have us as the big dog in the fight and we have at least two of the three previously mentioned attributes along with being better trained and more devious.


Mike if they dont meet that criteria than IMHO there not martial arts .

if you have the other attribute advantages these techniques would simply be not necessary .

if the applications arent simple brutal and effective enouh to be employed against someone bigger meaner and more desperate than there irrelevant to self protection .

if the strategy and mechanics of the movement dont create advantage then you need to look again or look elsewhere .

any physicaly dominant person can fight well with little else but will .

I'm also not really talking about a technical stalemate but being quickly taken out. And it does boil down at least partially to as you said controlling the entry and applying the technique. This is rather easy to do against an untrained person or someone who is badly trained, but against someone who really knows what they're doing it becomes very hard to do.




thats the defintion of skilled Mike , that is often a technical and learned ability . A developed attribute anyhow maybe language is the problem here .

but of course just my perspective , I love disagreement , it broadens my learning .

Dominating positon and force reception .


a most overlooked aspect IMHO



Plus, maybe the application it self is the wrong application, or is flawed, or may have to change.
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Postby Dana Sheets » Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:57 pm

OK - if a technique must work against a bigger/strong person - is there anything in the Uechi kata (just the kata and any of the kata) that is invalid?
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Postby MikeK » Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:40 pm

IMO most of the moves in any styles kata. As far as I can tell in kata we are essentially facing a slightly less trained version of ourselves. Kata are templates for techniques that the practitioner then has to learn to use against different body styles.
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Postby wes tasker » Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:01 pm

Kata are templates for techniques that the practitioner then has to learn to use against different body styles.


This may be nitpicking, but how about "Kata are templates of principles and concepts that manifest as techniques as the situation unfolds and dictates." The situation being perhaps the nature of the attack and the attacker(s).

-wes
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Postby MikeK » Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:35 pm

Some yes, some no. I think some kata are just a sequence of favorite techniques IMO. But I don't see anything wrong with a kata being technique based, as the techniques can lead to the concepts and principles.

The situation being perhaps the nature of the attack and the attacker(s).

I think so, but how do you determine the nature of the attack and the attacker?
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Postby Van Canna » Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:02 am

wes tasker wrote:
Kata are templates for techniques that the practitioner then has to learn to use against different body styles.


This may be nitpicking, but how about "Kata are templates of principles and concepts that manifest as techniques as the situation unfolds and dictates." The situation being perhaps the nature of the attack and the attacker(s).

-wes


I am in total agreement. :D
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Postby wes tasker » Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:25 am

I think so, but how do you determine the nature of the attack and the attacker?


When the "conflict" happens...

-wes
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Postby Dana Sheets » Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:06 pm

Mike,
Are you asking how one knows what attack a kata movement is responding to?

How does one go about matching up kata movements to their appropriate attacks?
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Postby MikeK » Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:51 pm

That's exactly it Dana, and one issue is that since we are missing the original attacker so we have to make up our own. I have methods that I use when looking at kata but I'd like to hear what others do to make the connection. I think how we make the connection can determine if we see a technique as being valid or invalid.
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Postby fivedragons » Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:03 am

When I practice kata, I don't worry about the attacker or what kind of attack.

Honestly, all I think about is the intent I am willing to direct at whoever causes me to fear for my life or the lives of any one I am wiling to give up my life for. :?

It's a philosophical and moral question. It has nothing whatsoever to do with technique, in my practice.

To me, karate is pure, and doesn't have anything to do with techniques. Or I should say there is only one technique.

I have my own personal reasons for this point of view, but it works for me.

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Postby fivedragons » Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:26 am

You see, the other side is that I really long to meet the perfect enemy. :lol:

There is a part of me that wants to be able to utilize all of the knowledge that is "hidden" in the kata. :lol:

The thing is, the perfect enemy is death itself, and the way that I learn to approach it. When one learns an appreciation for death, all the techniques in the world don't really amount to anything. All that is left is the spirit.
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Postby fivedragons » Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:33 am

delete

too heavy
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Postby MikeK » Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:29 pm

fivedragons wrote:Honestly, all I think about is the intent I am willing to direct at whoever causes me to fear for my life or the lives of any one I am wiling to give up my life for.


Wes wrote:This may be nitpicking, but how about "Kata are templates of principles and concepts that manifest as techniques as the situation unfolds and dictates." The situation being perhaps the nature of the attack and the attacker(s).


Me wrote: Kata are templates for techniques that the practitioner then has to learn to use against different body styles.


Here's the way I believe it really is. In a real world encounter you can have all the technique that you want, and principles and concepts coming out your wazoo, but without intent it may not add up to enough to save your bacon. You can also have great intent but without some technique you can still be in the same boat if the other guy is somewhat better trained than you are or even if his intent for whatever it is he wants from you is greater.

In the learning world you can spend (or waste) your time trying to collect numerous techniques when learning some simple principles and concepts will short cut the learning process, but on the flip side knowing principles and concepts are not the same as execution and testing of those same P&C against a resisting opponent.

In other words you need all three to make a lot of this stuff work.

Now to get back on track, what was Dana asking about invalid techniques in Uechi kata? :lol:
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