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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:49 am 
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Samurai
Joined: 03 Mar 2000
Posts: 144
Location: Muncie, IN USA Wave Techniques

I am not sure if this is the best place to ask this question, but I have had great responses in the past so here in goes….

Can someone please help explain the “nami-waza” or wave- techniques used in many Chinese based martial arts. I have been looking for a good explanation for a long time. If possible pictures or video would be a great help.
Thank you all,
Jeremy Bays

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Post 24 Oct 2000 14:00
Evan Pantazi
Joined: 17 Sep 1998
Posts: 1971
Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA Wave Techniques

Jeremy San,

I am not quite sure what you mean by "Wave Technique". Please elaborate.

Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com

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Post 24 Oct 2000 15:06
Samurai
Joined: 03 Mar 2000
Posts: 144
Location: Muncie, IN USA Wave Techniques

For quite a long time now I have heard that adding the "wave" into a movement was a way to generate much more power into the technique. It has been expressed as an ocean wave, starting in the center of your body and emitting outwards into the limbs.
From my understanding, it is akin to a whipping motion, but I am not sure.
Thanks
Jeremy Bays

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Post 24 Oct 2000 16:37
Evin
Joined: 27 Dec 1999
Posts: 42
Location: Overland Park, KS, USA Wave Techniques

I understand what you're saying. At a recent Dillman camp, Song, a Chi-Gong master described it as a figure 8. We did a few techniques using a figure 8, which increased the speed and power quite a bit. He demonstrated what he called the "butterfly punch" utilizing a figure 8 motion as his punch was coming out... very impressive. Evan was there, so maybe he can elaborate a bit on this.

Evin Hunt
Kyushojitsu.com

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Post 24 Oct 2000 16:47
RA Miller
Joined: 14 Apr 2000
Posts: 776
Location: Ptld OR USA Wave Techniques

Samurai-

In jujutsu we rely on what we call wave action quite a bit. I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing. It is a devastating way to increase power and does work from the center out to the limbs, but it is not at all esoteric.

As you attack, you do one of two things with your center of gravity. Either you raise it and bring it forward, then let it crash simultaneously with the attack like a cresting wave (imagine a huge wave breaking and crashing down onto a rock- your center does that).

Or, you attack by dropping your weight and letting it rebound off the ground into your attack. Like a wave curling up to raise a boat.
{emphasis mine -ds}

These are really weak descriptions. If this is what you are looking for, e-Mail me and I'll try again.

Rory
kamila@teleport.com


Hey Rory,

If you're around...Happy New Year!

And...would you mind elaborating on those two ideas I highlighted above?

cheers,
Dana

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:49 am 
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Dana, that's over six years old! What a memory!

This is easier to show than to tell and I'm not sure how much common language we have.

Dropping weight into a strike or movement is one of the best and easiest ways to get power. The boxer's drop-step is an easy way to show it (and this is how I demonstrate it to complete novices)

Stand in a boxer's stance facing a heavy bag. Extend you lead hand to the bag and make that arm perfectly straight, like a rigid pole. Your fist should be at least six inches away from the bag. WITHOUT shifting your weight or preparing in any way, lift your lead foot off the ground (do the chamber to a snap side kick) You will fall into the bag and, for most people, the simple falling bodyweight will transfer more energy to the bag than they have done with a punch before. Then move back a little farther.

This is without any arm action. When you add the arm movement to the fall you get a powerful, long range and untelegraphed (no shifting body weight) strike. This is the system Jack Dempsey used to make a jab (usually a distancing or distracting blow) into a long range knockout punch.

That was just to convince you that falling weight is a good idea. It's not only stronger (unless you can push more than you weigh with just your tricep) it's also faster and less telegraphed.

The crashing wave might be easiest to see in a tameshiwara demo. The karateka trying to break tiles: you'll see him lower his center of gravity and recede from the target, then raise it and move it closer so that his weight, as much as possible is above his striking hand. If you just put a dot on his COG, it will look just like a wave coming up and crashing down.

The rising wave is easiest to see in an extremely good judo hip throw. Again, if you put a dot on the COG, it makes a curve. The lowest point in the curve is actually some distance away from the target. When Tori's hips hit uke's thighs, he is rising.

In a strike with your hips shifted slightly away from your target, you would drop as shifting towards, using the drop to create both a bounce off the ground and loading your leg muscles for a powerful 'uncoiling'.

I hope I didn't make this even more confusing. Kami and I really want to make it to Summerfest this year. Will you be there? We could just do something with infighting power generation.

Rory


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:59 pm 
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Thanks Rory,

I'm hoping to make camp this summer. It always depends on the projects that flow my way.


In a seminar with my teacher's teacher (Mr. Nakamatsu) he showed a similar explanation when he held his arm out straight and lunged off his rear leg. He asked the group "Why did he move if I didn't punch?"

The answer, of course, is because he used his legs to move his body forward and the arm was basically like the lance of the knight on the horse.

As you may or may not have seen - the "forward leaning elbow strike" in uechi's popular seisan kata is done in two or three different ways. In one method the elbow is driven forward as the karate-ka drives off the rear leg and lunges forward. In another the weight (and therefore the elbow) are dropped in place.

These two variations demonstrate (IMO) how the wave needs to be used differently at different distances.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:39 am 
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So there are two, maybe three competing dynamics I'm struggling to find the balance of right now - and that balance differs for different techniques.

-when to shift the weight forward past the front of the lead leg toes, which means you might end up lifting and unweighting the rear leg (loss of structure) (i.e. - lunge punching or running forward and striking)
-how to reconsolidate from one movement to the next
-what changes when expressing force that is more circular than linear...and...my lines have circles and my circles have lines...

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:45 pm 
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Dana Sheets wrote:
So there are two, maybe three competing dynamics I'm struggling to find the balance of right now - and that balance differs for different techniques.

-when to shift the weight forward past the front of the lead leg toes, which means you might end up lifting and unweighting the rear leg (loss of structure) (i.e. - lunge punching or running forward and striking)

Dana, I can't think of a time when I ever did this. Even in fencing with your weight going forward in a fast, powerful lunge, your lead foot is in the air preceding it. Your center of gravity (COG) never leaves your base.

-how to reconsolidate from one movement to the next

This is much easier by maintaining your COG inside the base. Taking a riff from your question to Bill about swinging a bat, almost any action you can make coils you for a reaction in the opposite direction. At infighting range that means that almost any move sets your body up for an equally powerful move from the other quarter. For longer range fighting, that some times becomes an action of pulling yourself in to close range.

-what changes when expressing force that is more circular than linear...and...my lines have circles and my circles have lines...

Big question. The wave action is a system of generating circular force in a vertical plane, and that force can be added to almost any other. One of the cool things about power generation is how they compound- when you combine dead hand + whip action+ hip retraction + wave action + drop step you get a strike that will break bones through armor (caveat, I've broken ribs through armor with sixteen ounce gloves on but I only used 3 of the systems in combination, not all five)


Dana, hope that helps. Not a 100% sure I really understood the questions.

Rory


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:40 pm 
Hey Dana my 2 cents if you dont mind

the more you shift your weight or point of bance over one leg , then the more you get to physically push into it with the other leg .

So if your weight goes forward you should be physically balancing it by pushing back with the supporting leg .

this is the opening of the Qua , then the relaxation and weight shift becomes the closing .

and of course words fail me and it sounds wrong becuase it`s not that tense a contraction :lol:

maybe its about shifitng your weigt and augmenting physically your center of gravity .

god topic .


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:13 pm 
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The other night my teacher used an expression he used to use all the time - "bring your weight into your arms as you make contact and then use the floor the hit them"

In this case these two dynamics were setup by a mid to low level strike (think chest shove/hit or sucker punch to the stomach/ribs)

I think that image combines both of Rory's waves above. You drop your weight into the arm and then you use that weight plus their weight and momentum through the floor and back up through you into the strike.

It is similar to the power you get when someone accidentally walks into your punch - but instead you actively set up the lines and circles of force.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:32 am 
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To be honest, im really surprised at just how much you can use this.

Striking, grappling, the 'wave' is incredible!


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