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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:03 am 
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So in looking up something recently I happened to flip through a few of the pages at the front of the Okikukai's blue book that was released by Mr. Takamiyagi and others.

On page 119 is are the following images. I sure wish I could read the text. But the first looks to be related to a sanchin turning and thrusting motion that's in a number of kata and the second looks to be related to the opening of Seiryu and possibly a similar movement in Seichin.

Image

Of course the text could be saying what a terrible idea those movements are for all I know...but otherwise...happy throwing!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:50 am 
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Appears to be an angled shoulder throw after a strike. This illustrates it better. Any kid on mainland Japan would know that technique, so maybe they play some Judo on Oki in school also.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animatio ... onseoi.htm

I threw a student with the crossed shokens tonight when he asked me what they were for at the end of Kanshiwa. Kind of came out of no where.

A drag down arm bar for the second? There would be more stepping from what Jujitsu I've done. However everythings easier after a nice pointy thing in the throat. :D

F.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:33 pm 
So how many throws does Uechi have? i often think that the sanchin step is to slide your foot behind your opponents, then it is easy to just push him over, also I see Ikkyo and it's many variants in the wauke.also an arm entrapment throw.but maybe I am looking too hard :oops:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:14 pm 
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Once of the first things I was shown as a white belt was that the sanchin step could be use to displace balance.

Uechi doesn't have much in the way of a curriculum of formalized throws or take-downs. My personal opinion is that this is due in large part to the fact that all young Okinawan men (until recent times) engaged in "tegumi" a traditional Okinwan form of wrestling. So since all the local young men who walked into the dojo already knowing how to throw, they didn't need to teach it.

I was told a very entertaining story about a US serviceman that had been training with an Okinawan Uechi teacher and had achieved the rank of green belt. The dojo was in the home of the teacher.

One day while the student was warming up the teacher poked his head through the screen and asked the student if he was ready to learn "real" karate that day. The student emphatically replied that he was. The teacher disappeared back behind the screen. A few minutes later the teacher poked his head back throug the screen and asked again if the student was really ready to learn "real" karate. The student again emphatically replied that he was.

With that, the teacher came out onto the floor and asked the student to attack him. The student obliged and was grabbed by the throat, had his legs kicked out from under him and swept to the floor. The student got up, again attacked the teacher and was again on the floor in short order with another sweeping takedown. The third time the teacher stayed close to the student on the floor and said "Remember, karate is more than punching and kicking" and then laughed a big belly laugh.

So most while Uechi teachers don't delve deeply into teaching throwing..most teach a number of sweeps and reaping takedowns.

These include:
Using tenshin stepping to get your lead leg behind the lead leg of uke from the outside and using that as a pivot point to uproot the leg. Then adding a head or shoulder or arm yank to complete the sweep/throw (Okikukai Yakosuko Di-Ichi Kumite #10)

As uke is driving forward (punching or shoving) grabbing ahold of uke's arm and stepping backwards and turning to spin uke forward towards the ground (you can hold this one part-way in an armbar if you're so inclined) (Seichin Kata, Seiryu kata)

bumping/knocking/shoving/striking uke so that uke is starting to fall backwards and then snatching the lead leg up high into the air. (Mr. Kanei Uechi's Dan Kumite #6)

Using tenshin stepping to get at a back 45 degree angle to uke then stomping down on uke's calf at the same time pulling backwards on uke's collar/hair. (Kenyukai Kumite, Mr. Gushi's variations on Uechi's Dan Kumite)

Using the wauke or a similar movement to wrap the neck and apply circular pressure to spin uke down and forward (face towards a knee) or up and away so that you can easily then press uke's back straight down onto a knee. (Seichin, Kanchin, Sanseiryu).

Getting ahold of a lead leg, stepping behind the supporting leg, and shoving them down to the floor.

---------------------------
There are many others that I've been shown, and since I started with four years in Judo I think I've always looked at Uechi the an eye for entry points for throws. So the above are the ones I've seen most commonly shown and that have a wide number of variations. They are also, for the most part, easily learned, easily applied and involve nice gross motor movements.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:10 pm 
Thanks Dana,
but as Uechi was originally a Chinese art I wonder if there were throws in it. I know in Tai-Chi as an example there are three different applications to each move one is a strike, two is a throw, and three is a lock...apparently this type of thinking permeates Chinese arts and certainly when you do Wing-Chun many of the throws are of the Tai-Chi variety ( just thinking out loud really :D )


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:40 pm 
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I tend to agree. A very well timed strike will almost always displace the balance of someone somehow - if only because you zapped the central nervous system and the body decided that it needed to lie down very quickly. :)

To do "softer" things like throw and lock you need to be able to do those things without thinking about them. So as critters, we're hard-wired to slap, seize, gouge, and hit...the other things we're hardwired to is grab on and shove them down or away into something hard like a tree, rock, or the ground. The training comes in where you slam them into something - but you stay on your feet.

Locks are, for me, the cherry on top of the sundae. Hardest to do, hardest to learn, hardest to train. The only time I've been able to work locks well is when the other person grabs onto me. Then they're much easier. I've seen very nice video of police types being able to put on very good locks on perps..but they usually have a nice nightstick of some kind they use to help along the way.

All of them (strikes/locks/throws) can be "easy" if there is enough training put in so that they become mindless acts.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:47 am 
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Those throws in the kumite make you no more effective as a grappler than swinging the shinai in Seisan Bunkai makes you a swordsman.

If you want to grapple, Judo, Jujitsu, Sambo, BJJ.

Sword-Kenjutsu, Iaido, Iaijutsu.

Uechi to me is a striking art. Nothing wrong with that either.

F.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:56 am 
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Hmmm....
Well if you only do the ones in the kumite in a prescriptive manner than I would agree.

If you have a background in wrestling like many US men and a growing number of women...then I think once you have a baseline understanding of what it takes to take a standing person and put them on the ground, you only need to see a few examples to get the idea.

And then lots of oyo bunkai to make it work on your own terms.

Will everyone then be able to take down Joe Pomfret?
...nope.

But considering that about 75% of what men will deal with is either a shove or a swinging right arm haymaker...I believe that having a few well sharpened tools in the toolbox is better than 1,000 dull ones.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:09 am 
Quote:
Those throws in the kumite make you no more effective as a grappler than swinging the shinai in Seisan Bunkai makes you a swordsman.

If you want to grapple, Judo, Jujitsu, Sambo, BJJ.

Sword-Kenjutsu, Iaido, Iaijutsu.

Uechi to me is a striking art. Nothing wrong with that either.


Fred your right , having said that theres throws in Uechi and karate just as good as any .

But it`s in how you practice thats important .

Uechi striking is pathetic if trained in a pathetic manner , same goes for everything else .

and yes youd be stupid not to learn from the experts once youve found something to work on .

Uechi isnt predominantly a striking art IMHO , it is very much a tussling bustling stand up grappling art if trained that way .


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:55 am 
This is one of those threads where I agree with everything that has been said :D .....I do think that a basis in a throwing art will give you more insights and more effective techniques.I also think that from a Uechi viewpoint ( echoing Dana and Marcus)......if you do Uechi techniques your punches will look like throws, palm strikes for example.

http://www.londonaikido.com/static.php?page=atemi_waza

but generally, from what I've seen in my country people don't look deeply enough into these techniques, that one above shomen-ate fills a lot of criteria.high road and low road, and it's a classical technique that you can use in a "Blue man" scenario :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:20 pm 
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Actually I was playing with Joe Pomfret once and I flipped him with Ippon seoi nage.

Then he strangled out my butt on the ground. I would have won in Judo, but died on the street.

Which leads to the other part of this. Why are you taking them down?

Might be their playground your going to.

I would also add that Uechi holds them while it hits them, which is where people connect the grappling arts.

But I bet if I took Irish step dancing I could connect those moves as well into our kata.

In a lot of Dojo the principles of those throws in Kumite are rarely taught Dana.
With your background you understand them. The kuzushi is vital to those working and the kumite are too compliant to bring them up to a level where they will work on the street.
F.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:32 pm 
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Quote:
Then he strangled out my butt on the ground. I would have won in Judo, but died on the street.


How about if his head had hit concrete?
Just wondering.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:00 pm 
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Probably would have made him angry.....

Of course he more than likely let me throw him, since BJJ guys prefer it on the mat anyway.

The throw in both the OKK or Soke kumite would have to be done in a very aggressive and different way to have the head strike also.

Should be isolated and practiced with a crash mat to reap it's full effectiveness.

Lot of "if's" of course always. :D

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:43 pm 
in my country the most common cause of death in a streetfight is the head hitting the concrete.bad guy usually gets off with manslaughter.very hard to prove that he intended to kill :roll: .....worth remembering those cloths line throws and shomen-ate :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:43 am 
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One person hits their head and dies another lives. Go figure.
The human body can take trememdous punishment and other times a freak accident can kill easily.

I will say the only takedown that exists in the big three Uechi is the kick catch and throw in Sanseiryu which Van did to me one time as a demonstration. It also shows up in point two of Dan Kumite.
My ukemi was good back then.
Still a very tough fall to take on puzle mats, and a fight ender.
The kumite ones not so much, unless done real well.
F.

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