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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:18 am 
:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:27 am 
Dont worry Laird , were just doing it wrong ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnaxbhx-Zh8


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:59 am 
thats what i suspected


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:24 am 
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Doing what wrong?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:38 am 
Sorry Fred I was assuming what Laird felt .

theres only one throw In Uechi , so where not doing Uechi throws .

some folks think outside the box a little more , and beleive what they do is Uechi .

I find it a bit funny that somethings Uechi or not because it`s found in a book.

But respect your veiw differs . And should of kept my mouth shut as I`d intended too on the subject .


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:59 am 
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Stryke,

Have I ever said keep a point of view to yourself? :lol: Just the contrary.

I was looking at the main 3 kata and where are the definate throws.

The only one I can clearly see is that leg catch and throw in Sanseiryu. You could also be hooking under a knee and dumping.

That one in the book are added later in the Kumite.

If the o-soto gari is reached out for and there's no off balancing, strongest guy wins. Doing it with compliance in a kumite, I don't think that's picked up on.

The one in Dan Kumite I don't have much faith in, never have. I can't see me at 160 pounds taking down a 220 pound guy with that. I definately prefer O-soto to that if done right.

With the principles Jigoro Kano wrote.

"Again, a man is standing in his natural position and I attempt to twist his arm. In this case I shall find great difficulty, as he has full power to defend himself. But taking advantage of his unguarded moment or his moving in a certain direction, I pull him in that direction and disturb his balance. Then I can easily twist his arm, and by holding and pressing it near the elbow joint with my arm, I can entirely incapacitate him; as, unless he yields to me, he will be hurt and may even have the joint dislocated."


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:08 am 
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Also,

I add in moves in other places as well.

I think one of the best places to add in a throw in during or after the elbow strikes.

The position sets up nice for this.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/nauta/kouchi.gif

I saw a guy knocked out with that on 101 Ippons. Nasty head slam.

Can also be picked up into a leg pick. Left wa-uke just continues down to the heel.

Good but Judo or Sambo. Not Uechi. :)

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:20 am 
Hey Fred everytime I see arm movement I see possible kuzushi , You can wheel someone with a Sanchin draw right ? , how about getting those knees in there too .

also just shearing with the sanchin guard can break posture manipulate the spine , every rounded step , every turn is a potential throw .

Ever thought of Sanchin thrusting under someones armpit and then doing the Sanchin turn ? , of course returning to Sanchin to get the underhook , hey thats probably one of the first judo throws taught isnt it ?

Seisan is great the turn before the three crane thingys , the old clothes line over the hip .

heck the Wauke can throw a few different ways , grab the arm extended with the minor hand , step behind the outside leg and wauke against the chest taking them over the knee .

heck maybe those are takedowns to your thinking there are more of those .

thats just of the top of my head , sure it may take some imagination , but the mechanics are there IMHO .


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:04 am 
Some Judo throws I see

seoinage on the turn ?

maybe o guruma on a sanchin turn ?

I couldnt but Fred could Sumi-otoshi be psossible from a Sanchin type thrust movement ? , thats a stretch i`d just love to learn that throw :lol: :oops:


Maybe Harai goshi could be done on the turn ? all similar mechanics yes ?

All Osoto gari is is a step with arms up , yes theres more too it but easy to put in there huh ?

maybe deashi hirai , what sanchin position and a hook of the leg with a step ?

Uchi mata`s a turn right , with the leg hooking in the middle , maybe not classic uechi but I could fit it perhaps .....


etc etc , maybe you need to squint but it`s the mechanics of the movment I`m exploring .

and I`ve probably got some of those wrong , my judoese is terrible


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:51 am 
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?a ... F83CBE624A

Some Uechi throws from Uechi folk

Thanks Laird and crew 8) :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:42 pm 
To be honest I can see a lot of Akido in Sanchin.I know a few bunkai, and one I was shown is exactly the way that an aikidoka would do Ikkyo against a kick......I cannot honestly say that they were intended to be there, I really just don't know.but it does add a different dimension :D .......Aikido in many ways is a lot like Tai-Chi...and Tai-Chi may be the soft in a Chinese hard/soft style :D ( Uechi).there are differences, but not that many :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:28 pm 
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My Uechi is my Uechi and my Judo is Judo and although they often fit together I clearly define them as where they came from. But that's just where I come from.

The video is cool thanks. Personally the Seichin thing isn't for me. Rely's too much on the shoulders to work. I liked the Seisan vertical elbow application, although the one time I got hit with it pretty good there was no need for a throw. Hurts good enough.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:37 pm 
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So I'm sitting here running the "uechi is mostly a striking art" phrase over and over again in my head...what I come up with is...sometimes...which is what I've come up with since the very beginning of my training.

I've been shown throwing bunkai for many uechi kata movements. Dug up a half decent one myself out of a Harry Cook article on Seisan. That one is archived under "flag and drum".

So the sometimes answer is that it depends which arm is already touching uke when the other arm does a different movement.

The answer to me is also atemi/todomi (setup/finish)

I've not said that Uechi is mostly a grappling art. I think that's more of Goju-ryu. When I watch their forms I see a gazzilion balance displacements for every one strike.

When I watch Uechi kata I see a more even back and forth between balance displacement and striking. Sometimes the balance displacement is so that the striking can be more effective. Sometimes the striking is the setup so the balance displacement will be more effective.

Isn't "grabbing" when done properly a balance displacment? -- either by pull, push, or pain reaction?

So if I move with my whole body to a vector of advantage, grab a good bit of uke that will help me keep uke from staying centered, and whallop uke a good one...I'd expect uke to be losing his balance in front of me while I got to keep mine.

I still really think the biggest "secret" of Okinawan karate is that everyone already knew the throws. So to kick a dead horse one more time...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tegumi

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Last edited by Dana Sheets on Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:42 pm 
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another tegumi citation by Charles Goodin, a well-respect researcher of karate's roots.
http://seinenkai.com/art-sumo.html
Quote:
Tegumi Lead to Karate.

When practiced as a sport, tegumi became Okinawan sumo. When practiced for self-defense, and with the addition of the Chinese techniques of striking (particularly vital point and nerve attacks known as kyosho jutsu), blocking and kicking, tegumi became karate. In fact, the characters for the old name "karate" or "tote," meant "China" (for the Chinese arts) and "Hand" (for "tegumi").

Before 1900, karate included a strong emphasis on tegumi, or grappling, which includes such techniques as throws, sweeps, trips, joint locks, chokes, holds, traps and parries. Older karate kata such as Wanshu, Wankan, Rohai, and Passai reflect these movements in certain seemingly elaborate open-handed techniques. In Passai, for example, there is sequence in which the opponent throws a left punch. Parrying the punch with his right hand, the defender catches the wrist with his left and applies a joint lock, which causes the attacker to twist in pain and go down on one knee. The defender next raises his right knee, breaking the attacker's arm in the process, and throws a right side kick to the left knee. Already in a vulnerable position, the attacker is completely disabled. This short sequence illustrates the integration of tegumi and striking/kicking techniques which was characteristic of traditional karate.

When karate was introduced to the public school system at the turn of the century, however, it underwent a process of simplification to make it safer for younger students. The emphasis in modern kata such as the five Pinan kata which were developed abound 1905, shifted to closed-handed punching and blocking techniques and open-handed (shuto) strikes. The grappling or tegumi element was minimized or removed completely, as were nerve attacks and vital point techniques. Tegumi remained an integral aspect of the art in the private classes conducted by karate sensei outside of the public schools. It is interesting to note that when karate was introduced to mainland Japan in the early 1920's, several students who were already experts at ju jutsu, immediately combined the two arts. This was not because karate in Okinawa lacked grappling techniques, but rather because this aspect was simply not being emphasized at the time by the early teachers on mainland Japan.


Now - I'm not saying that 100% of what is said about some of the more popular Okinawan systems applies to Uechi. However, I am saying that if the whole island was doing tegumi...then it may be in the realm of possibility that throwing was a "you understood" in the language of fighitng for Okinawans.

Everyone knew how it was being used, so nobody had to really talk about it.

Know what I mean?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:54 am 
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You guys should all switch to Shotokan, we have lots of throws in both our book and kata. :lol:

Shotokan, the mother of all martial arts! :lol:

Quote:
In Passai, for example, there is sequence in which the opponent throws a left punch. Parrying the punch with his right hand, the defender catches the wrist with his left and applies a joint lock, which causes the attacker to twist in pain and go down on one knee. The defender next raises his right knee, breaking the attacker's arm in the process, and throws a right side kick to the left knee. Already in a vulnerable position, the attacker is completely disabled.


A slight variation of that obvious move is still in Bassai, but you'd be amazed at the incredible interpretations of that very simple sequence.

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