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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:51 pm 
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So picking up the jars activates a certain level of muscles contraction. In the video and in person, Mr. Gushi did a good deal of muscle contract before he picked up the jars...but that's not all he did. He inhaled several times before he picked up the jars - and he exhaled less than he inhaled (from what I could see from 5 feet away).

Now why would he do that?
-Dana

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:13 am 
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What is the difference between someone who is standing on the ground in a sanchin stance and someone someone who has grounded their sanchin stance 6' below the floor?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:02 am 
it depends on the differences ;)

but a usefull visualisation none the less

My favourites having a spike from my feet into the ground .

Kind of like the ultimate rugby sprigs

wether not you can feel and channel groundpath is huge ..... but no surprise to uechika i`m sure .


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:52 pm 
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Hmmm, nice.
What if the spike started at your head?

So on Van's kata thread Mark Brelsford just said that Nakahodo would take students who were sandans and start building a stronger, more powerful sanchin.

Sandans? Significantly improving sanchin? Hmmm.....it is good that there is always more to learn.

So what I'm getting at is the difference between a student you can push over with a finger and a student you can lean on in any direction and they stick to the ground in sanchin in a fairly relaxed way. Why spend so much time developing a student who can stick to the floor? And in our haste and pace of modern life - should even more time be spent on this fundamental aspect of our training?

Again - in Mr. Miyagi's dojo he would check the stance of every student during every movement of every kata. Will that make a different kind of student than a student who is only checked for their connection to the floor during sanchin?

Last week I went around and checked the stances of students while they were doing hojo-undo. On movements such as the hiraken uke and the mawashi uke it was easy to feel the students who were lifting up from their connection to the floor. Same during the shuto an the backfist combo.

If I lose that connection while standing still during hojo-undo how can I possibly expect to be able to use that connection during free sparring?

-------------------------------------------------------------------

An aside on the Uechi curriculum:

The Uechi progression makes so much sense if we focus on the student's connection to the ground.

Sanchin - stand there, then step, then strike, then turn (don't try to do everything at once), use the jars to build body awareness, develop the connective tissues and muscles, the tenacious mind, the bones, the breathing...

Body Conditioning - all that stuff - weights, calesthenics, makiwara, running, partner kitae, etc.

Seisan - coordinated movements

Sanseiryu - longer and deeper movements, more circular movements

Free fighting - unrehearsed application of the movements

If you are a good teacher with a patient student - all you need is above. However - few of us seem to be that patient as teachers or students. So, in order to identify and address various deficiencies in various students and to have more variety in the training, it is useful to have more tools in the toolbox.

So add the bridges:
body building and conditioning - specific additional things added to address the specific needs of each student above and beyond the general traditional conditioning elements

hojo-undo - one great big kata that contains most of the funamentals you need for fighting in a format where the teacher can check your form, your connection to the ground, listen to your breathing - in an extremely low-risk environment

additional kata - move the student through additional postures, lets the teacher audition the student in various combinations of movements to identify weakensses

bunkai - both yakosuko (pre-arranged) and oyo (not pre-arranged) - stop and go fighting focused on the postures in the kata. Yakosuko bunkai is lower risk, oyo bunkai is higher risk. But it usually stops after a single attack

pre-arranged kumite - stop and go fighting - little perfect pictures of fighting that allow the teacher to see if the student can execute coordinated body movements while maintaining their connection to the floor during a slightly higher risk but still relatively safe drill. These can be one attack one response drills (at our dojo we often use hojo-undo as a template) or the longer and more complicated things that have been choreagraphed by various teachers

flow drills - help the student develop continuous movement during rehearsed sequences (not stop and go) - low risk with continuous movement.

slow speed free fighting - continuous, extra slow motion, non-choreagraphed, movements with no power - less structure but still more safety

fighting with outsiders - letting the student face the unknown to hone their skills and identify weaknesses - the highest form of risk without intentionally exposing the student to violence
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:11 am 
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Hmmm, nice.
What if the spike started at your head?


Hey Dana , I dont really like the analogy of that any more , I find it usefull as a median position and postural alignment , and maybe it`s a great tool image for beginners , but works more above the waist and even then gets a little bent out of shape with spinal whip(dragon etc)

I think it encourages more thinking of rotating around the centre than through the centre , centripedal versus centrifugal force .

Back on track though , I think grounding is probably the biggest (key) lesson in mechanics , its the key for generating heavy strikes IMHO , being able to take a shove is just a small benifit when you consider all the advantages to a direct line of force .

as for using it in movement , I feel some form of push hand work is key to this , try maintaining base while someone pushes on your sanchin draw or thrust etc , add footwork , even arm rubbing can give that tactile feedback .

one of the more abstract notions ( to me ) is the concept of grounding upwards , once you have a good base downwards and can maintain it visualising projecting upwards and pushing the energy up can really aid in grounding , creating a slight compression . Not much of a concept to give a beginner though I think , more chi stuff , might get some funny looks ;) :D


also when projecting down , I dont really think of a depth but think forever , same as on strikes , but i think the tool with a lot of this stuff is what helps you find a feel , and what imagery works for the individual and look at the mechanical science behind it .

Ink Grinding Qi-gong etc and Ricks does some good Sanchin mechanics drills that really help in folks finding there base , and the relatoinships going on .

to me this is the stuff folks would be working on with a three year Sanchin or the like , I could so spend three years working on such mechanics .


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:57 pm 
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Thanks Stryke-there's good stuff in what you wrote.

So I've been taught (from a number of sources) that Sanchin for the first three months should be withOUT "power" meaning no major contracting of the muscles.

So what is the student doing during those three months?

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Last edited by Dana Sheets on Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:41 am 
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I missed a lot of great stuf on this thread; it's really "gone somewhere".

Dana, Stryke .. you "guys" are awesome .. like living in the Uechi "compendium"!

May have some comments after a thorough re-read.

Rock on!

~N~

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:49 am 
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Dana: you wrote this:
"Sanchin for the first three months should be with "power" meaning no major contracting of the muscles. "

I'm confused by this. Did you mean "withOUT power"?

I was told constantly during my early training to NEVER try to "power" the movements, especially in Sanchin.

~N~

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:10 am 
Thanks guys , Is a great topic

I`m playing with Jars down here , really trying to develop hand/wrist/grip strength , Is a lot of fun , never imagined it would be so difficult , good challenge , will be interesting to see how it progresses .


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:14 am 
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So I've been taught (from a number of sources) that Sanchin for the first three months should be with "power" meaning no major contracting of the muscles.

So what is the student doing during those three months?


did you mean without Dana ? , although to me without major contraction would be a great way to develop power .... fluidity being a good source of power .

If thats what you meant , what I`d say it should be teching/focusing is posture and alignment (the harmonies)

the key to groundpath and grounding and structur/power efficiency etc etc


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:41 pm 
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Ack - yes - withOUT power. I'll go fix.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:19 pm 
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Dana ,
Kanbun sensei on the start of sanchin training .



" I worked on nothing but these thrusting motions for three months ,but because I had nothing else to work on ,my my thrust became very strong" .

A differant school of thought .

Max.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:41 pm 
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Hi Max,

That is an interesting perspective and one I know that you have explored in depth. Mr. Tomoyose said that when he started his trainining they would do the jars every day. And after a week a handful of sand would be added to the jars. He also said that he didn't learn the entire sanchin kata at the begining.

I didn't think to ask him if he learned the jar training at the very start of this training or a few months in.

It is my understanding that the jar training came from China and was not an Okinawan addition. As one of few elements Kanbun brought back from China (3 kata, conditioning, jar training, and toe to toe sanchin stance free-fighting) it makes it a very important element in my mind.

At what point do you add jar training, if at all, for your students?

-Dana

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:00 pm 
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Hi Dana ,

I don't bring the jars into use untill after the three year sanchin .
Historically the Kanbun Quote is the oldest on the start of his sanchin training ,Thats what It was sanchin training ,people like to sometimes think jars ,weights etc and sanchin ,maybe later on in uechiryu this did happen .
The three year sanchin is a or was a typical chinese start to various ryu .

kanbun Sensei ," All I did for three years was sanchin, very few students survived this type of training " He does not say sanchin included Jars etc ,within in that specific time period .

Personally I am not really bothered when other teachers introduce jars etc, thats mostly up to them .

My understanding of the sanchin principle is totally different, in respect of why the jars were not a part of the lengthy sanchin period ,and they were never stressed anyway by Kanbun Himself .

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:27 pm 
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The biggest question of all is what does "power" mean?

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