What harm hath he wrought?

[Bill Glasheen]

I can buy that Jason was a bit rough on the Rutgers University women. I personally wouldn't have piled on. It wouldn't have been my style.

However...

He was writing a Commentary. It was an Editorial. They are about a point of view. You pick an idea, and run with it.

He presumed quite a bit in his endeavor to make his point.

Would I have taken the lemons and made lemonade from them? Yep. A good recruiter does his/her job 24/7.

Do the women of the Rutgers University basketball team identify with rap and hip hop culture? I don't know. Starting all of this was a comment in the Imus show about tattoos. Do the women have tattoos? I don't know...

He didn't make a good case.

I wouldn't allow tattoos on my University team. I wouldn't kick you out if you already had them, but I'd say "no more." We make a statement with our personal appearances. When I dress well for work, it tells my boss I take my job seriously. I'm entitled to style, but it's inappropriate for me to leave my shirt unbuttoned halfway down my chest.

That's the world we live in. It's part of the emotional intelligence we pick up on as we experience the vicissitudes of life.

I agree that there's too little evidence to fault the Rutgers women. Leave them alone the same way we leave the Duke boys alone for having a strip party.

We all however need to understand the consequences of our choices in style. Whether we like it or not, we make a statement. Be careful what you are communicating.

As for Naifong.... I don't dance at the altar of civil litigation. Sorry... I don't feed more money to the legal system devil.

Naifong deserves jail time. He presided over The Perfect Storm - and knew it.

• Black vs. White
• Rich vs. poor
• Athletes vs. academics
• Liberal academia vs. conservative bourgeoisie.
• UNC (Naifong) vs. Duke. You have no idea... You really don't. Not unless you live the ACC and live in Research Triangle.
• Male vs. female
• The social liberals vs. the social conservatives.
• Elite (number 1) University vs. community college.

That's all fine and good, except...

He .... had ... no ... evidence.

He lied about having evidence (DNA) when he didn't.

He withheld evidence.

WTF was he thinking??? All I can think of is "Suicide by Society."

- Bill

[Gene DeMambro]

It seems the US Marine Corps agrees with you, Bill:

OCEANSIDE, California (AP) -- Five tattooed skulls stretch from Marine Cpl. Jeremy Slaton's right elbow to his wrist, spelling out the word "Death." He planned to add a tattoo spelling "Life" on his left arm, but that's on hold because of a Marine policy taking effect Sunday.

The Marines are banning any new, extra-large tattoos below the elbow or the knee, saying such body art is harmful to the Corps' spit-and-polish image.

Slaton and other grunts are not pleased.

"I guess I'll get the other half later," grumbled the 24-year-old leatherneck from Eden Prairie, Minnesota. "It's kind of messed up."

For many Marines, getting a tattoo is a rite of passage. They commonly get their forearms inscribed to remember fallen comrades, combat tours or loved ones, and often ask for exotic designs that incorporate the Marine motto, Semper Fi, or "Always faithful."

Dozens of Marines from Camp Pendleton, the West Coast's biggest Marine base, made last-minute trips to tattoo parlors in nearby Oceanside before the ban kicked in.

"This is something I love to do," said Cpl. David Nadrchal, 20, of Pomona, who made an appointment to get an Iraqi flag and his deployment dates etched onto his lower leg. "The fact I can't put something on my body that I want -- it's a big thing to tell me I can't do that."

Nadrchal said he is unsure whether he will re-enlist: "There's all these little things. They are slowly chipping away at us."

Marine Corps Commandant Gen. James T. Conway announced the policy change last week.

"Some Marines have taken the liberty of tattooing themselves to a point that is contrary to our professional demeanor and the high standards America has come to expect from us," he said. "I believe tattoos of an excessive nature do not represent our traditional values."

The ban is aimed primarily at "sleeve" tattoos, the large and often elaborate designs on the biceps and forearms of many Marines. Similar designs on the lower legs will be forbidden as well. So will very large tattoos on the upper arm, if they are visible when a Marine wears his workout T-shirt. Small, individual tattoos will still be allowed on the arms and legs. (The Marines already ban them on the hands.)

Marines already tattooed are exempt from the ban but cannot add to their designs. Anyone caught with fresh ink in the wrong place could be barred from re-enlistment or face disciplinary action. Getting a prohibited tattoo could constitute a violation of a lawful order, punishable by up to two years in prison and a dishonorable discharge, Marine spokesman 1st Lt. Brian Donnelly said.

Unit commanders must photograph and document sleeve tattoos to ensure Marines do not add to their ink.

The Marines and the other branches of the military already ban tattoos that could be offensive or disruptive, such as images that are sexist, vulgar, gang-related or extremist.

The Army, which has been doing most of the fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan and is struggling to fill its ranks, actually relaxed its tattoo restrictions last year. Soldiers can now get ink on the back of their hands and the lower back of the neck.

The Navy last year decreed that tattoos visible while in short-sleeve uniform cannot be larger than the wearer's hand. The Air Force says tattoos should be covered up if they are bigger than one-quarter the size of the exposed body part.

Tattoo artist Jerry Layton at the Body Temple Tattoo Studio in Oceanside said he was booked up with Marines rushing to beat the deadline.

"These are guys that are dying in the war," Layton said. "They can fight, but they can't get a tattoo? It's ridiculous."

Copyright 2007 The Associated Press.

[Stryke]

So what does having tattoos communicate about someone ?


and is it always a bad thing ....

talk about a lack of relevence .

Isnt it the message that deems it appropriateness rather than the medium ?

I know it`s a side track ....

America is about celebrating diversity isnt it ?

[Stryke]

It’s unfortunate that, as Kia Vaughn brought to light in the team’s press conference, the “prostitute” part isn’t getting nearly as much flak as the “nappy-headed” part.

[Bill Glasheen]

It’s unfortunate that, as Kia Vaughn brought to light in the team’s press conference, the “prostitute” part isn’t getting nearly as much flak as the “nappy-headed” part.

Actually I agree.

"Nappy-headed" isn't necessarily a pejorative. Sometimes it is what it is. Manny Ramirez is nappy-headed, for Christ's sake.



And he's damn proud of it. That look is part of the personality of the Bosox. It is their collective fashion statement. A uniform of a sort.

Johnny Damon wore one such "style" with the Bosox.



He sports another as a damn Yankee.



Better looking as a Red Sox, if you ask me...

The "prostitute" word may be affectionate in some contexts. In the right situation, I have called my girlfriend or spouse a "prostitute." But again... It's in a joking manner like telling someone you're going to make them your b----.

In the Imus context though it was a low blow (no pun intended). And given past comments in Corporate America about how "good looking" women sleep their way to success, it just is uncalled for. You just can't go there without a response you wish you hadn't gotten.

It's just plain hateful. I admire these women. Imus was a {expletive deleted} for raining on their accomplishments.

So what does having tattoos communicate about someone ?


and is it always a bad thing ....

It depends. And that's the kicker.

Not all tattoos are created equal. The problem is that tattoos are part of prison culture. And with everything else going on with the negative aspects of rap and hip hop, it's just problematic.

Again.... Student athletes are getting a free education. And there are other fringe benefits. I can't tell you how resentful I was in all my years of school literally half starved trying to make ends meet while watching the jocks on full scholarship load up their food trays (for free) in the cafeteria. Furthermore, they become ambassadors for the University - whether they like it or not.

The commissioner of the NBA created a dress code for the NBA athletes. Athletes complained, but... Again, it's the image they portray and the franchise they represent. It's a conscious disassociation with prison culture and a desire to project a degree of professionalism.

The company I work for (Boston based) is very "researchy" and a bit relaxed. The secretary to the CEO waited a few weeks before exposing all her tattoos. She used to be a dominatrix in her past. I kid you not... Lots of interesting body art that can be hidden, but also can be exposed. No biggie... She's still secretary to the CEO.

But they keep her out of the front office area. Why? What image do you want to project to your customers paying six figures for your software?

I personally don't care. She's a sweetie, and we are good friends. On the other hand, I choose to dress well for customers when I see them. When I intend to make an impression, I want everything working in my favor.

- Bill

[Valkenar]

Few points.

Calling the rap culture black culture is like calling country music culture white culture. It glosses over the fact that a lot of people don't fit into that category. Lots of black people are disturbed by some of the destructive elements of inner-city, low-wealth, black culture. Some are also be disturbed by people insulting their race.

The Rutgers team has no reason to publicly oppose the language of rap songs. Those songs are not specifically targetting them. Rutgers doesn't represent women as a group, thus it is not their job to address slights against women as a group, even though the team is composed of women. Imus was specifically talking about the team, and thus it makes sense for the team to address what he said. If musician, whether Tim McGraw or Snoop Dawgg, were to make a comment in a song about the team specifically, then it might be appropriate to respond. It's also questionable whether what Imus does is art the same way that music is art.

Racism can absolutely go both ways. But like it or not, there are different ways to use the words "black", and the source does matter. In inner-city black culture, "X is my nigga" means "X is my good friend/a good, reliable person." You might make a very good argument for why it's not a good idea to use the word that way. That doesn't change the fact that it conveys a positive feeling towards the person when used in that context. By contrast, it is not immediately obvious what Imus means when he describes the Rutgers team as "nappy headed hos." He could have meant it positively, but that was not clear enough. To illustrate by way of an extreme example, if Dr Dre says "Snoop is my nigga" it means something totally different than if a klansman says the same thing. Imus isn't a klansman, but he's not Dr Dre either. So when he uses a phrase like that, it's a lot harder to know that he means well by it.

[Bill Glasheen]

Calling the rap culture black culture is like calling country music culture white culture.

Nobody said that rap culture was black culture.

Using your analogy however... Rap can be found as a subset of black culture in the exact same way country music can be found in white culture. There are notable exceptions of course (e.g. Eminem).

And using your own words...

Lots of black people are disturbed by some of the destructive elements of inner-city, low-wealth, black culture.

Jason Whitlock is a prime example.

But it isn't inner-city, low wealth per se. There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with either. There's no shame in living in the inner-city, or being low-wealth. And there really isn't anything wrong with rap or hip hop per se either.

I spent most of my life having negative net worth. Of course I was investing in my future, but...

The element we're talking about is the drug, violence, and prison culture.

- Bill

[Valkenar]

The element we're talking about is the drug, violence, and prison culture.

Agreed,but violent, narcocentric, prison culture isn't specific enough either, as there are different version of that, just as there are different kinds of low-wealth, inner-city black culture. Possibly "gangsta" is the best adjective.

[Bill Glasheen]

True...

It is a romanticizing of counter culture the way Jesse James or Bonnie and Clyde were cool.

Actually when you think about it, it can go very deep and exist in many layers of society.

I get angry when my wife buys Adam Sandler movies for my boys. He more often than not plays a character who glorifies stupidity.

It's the bumper sticker that says "My kid beat up your honor student." Oh... Ha, ha, ha! I think...

It's the female physician who worked for me in a previous career. She was an MD, MBA, and had probably the most remarkable "EQ" I've seen in my life. She told me that when she was a teenager, she kept quiet about her grades. She wanted to do cheerleading, and it wasn't cool for a girl to be smart. It particularly wasn't cool for a girl to be smarter than guys who might be interested in her. And in certain circles, she's absolutely right.

I understand the concept of pride. But I don't buy into the whole BS about not hurting people's self esteem with the achievement of others, etc. That's a big crock. It enables stupidity, mediocrity, lack of motivation, and a lack of respect for authority.

Yes, prison is overrepresented by certain minorities. But I don't see that as either as racial bias in our judicial system or anything negative about being black per se. IMO it's about the culture. It would be pretty easy to show my point if not prove it. Take a tally of how many people in society grew up with a dad at home. Then do the same in the prison population.

I know with almost 100% certainty that if I left my 2 boys to grow up with mom, that they'd grow up to be pretty rotten kids if not end up in prison. Raising kids the right way is a team effort. It's tough enough when you have absolutely everything going for them.

James Whitlock put it this way.

Has he suggested in any way that it’s cool to be a baby-daddy rather than a husband and a parent? Does he tell his listeners that they’re suckers for pursuing education and that they’re selling out their race if they do?

When Imus does any of that, call me and I’ll get upset.

It's the counter culture, stupid!

- Bill

[Valkenar]

I know with almost 100% certainty that if I left my 2 boys to grow up with mom, that they'd grow up to be pretty rotten kids if not end up in prison.

Wow, that's quite a statement. Are you seriously saying that nearly 100% of single-mom kids grow up rotten or in prison? No way. Do you have evidence to support this kind of claim? Something that shows that independant of other factors such as social class, drug abuse, etc, that single-parent households have anywhere near as bad an outcome as you are saying, compared to two-parent households? I'll buy that well-off single-parent households have worse outcomes, on average, but near 100% rotten kids/incarceration rate? I would be very, very shocked if it were above 50%, let alone 100%.

Or is there some reason your kids are particularly likely to turn bad?

[Gene DeMambro]

Nobody said that rap culture was black culture.

With all due respect, Bill, you did when you wrote:

Yes, blacks need to get their own house in order before pointing an accusing finger at Imus. Don't go telling us what Imus shouldn't say if you don't clean up your rap music. But still... No excuse.

Gene

[fivedragons]

Originally posted by Valkenar:

"Or is there some reason your kids are particularly likely to turn bad?"

Maybe because they're Irish.

[Bill Glasheen]

Justin and Gene

Wow, guys. I'm surprised you don't see the issues in your logic.

I know with almost 100% certainty that if I left my 2 boys to grow up with mom, that they'd grow up to be pretty rotten kids if not end up in prison.

Wow, that's quite a statement. Are you seriously saying that nearly 100% of single-mom kids grow up rotten or in prison?

I made sure I quoted this "as is" so all could see the flawed logic in your question, Justin.

• My spouse cannot control my boys all that well when I'm not around. It is what it is.
  
  We have a repeated measures design here. Dad leaves town, boys act up. Dad is home, boys behave. Etc., etc., etc.
• It is a statistical certainty that prison is overrepresented by that part of the population where the men came from families without a dad at home.
  
  Just wait until you have a couple (or more) of teenagers around the house, Justin.
• Nowhere above did I say "nearly 100% of single-mom kids grow up rotten or in prison" Go ahead. Read the above as many times as you wish. You won't get that out of my quote - no matter how hard you try.

I do however know my boys. MY PERSONAL ANECDOTE is one where I know my boys need a father figure in the home. Could things be different with different boys? With a different mom? Who knows?

However... My personal experience is an interesting anecdote which helps personalize the reams of data about boys growing up in homes without fathers. Some boys grow up to be fine men. But the odds aren't as good.

Play poker, Justin?

Nobody said that rap culture was black culture.

With all due respect, Bill, you did when you wrote:

Yes, blacks need to get their own house in order before pointing an accusing finger at Imus. Don't go telling us what Imus shouldn't say if you don't clean up your rap music. But still... No excuse.

Gene

So where is the problem with logic, Gene?

Let me help you a bit here.

• Don Imus used the expression "nappy-headed hos."
• A firestorm came of it.
• Many in the media and in water cooler conversations have called "hypocracy" when several of "the usual suspects" in the activist community (e.g. Sharpton and Jackson) professed "shock" at Imus' abhorrent words used in reference to women on the highly-successful Rutgers basketball team. To name a few, that would include commentators on morning shows on CBS, NBC, ABC, ESPN, and FOX, and Sunday Morning shows on NBC and ABC. Quite specifically, they are referring to
  
  • The dramatic prevalence of the use of n*****, prostitute, and b**** in rap and hip hop music. A simple Google on these words will give you more than a million hits - most coming from lyrics of this music genre. (Dateline)
  • The silence of "the usual suspect" activists with respect to the prevalence of hate language in rap and hip hop music. (To his credit, Bill Cosby has been a leader in confronting this problem. And he's been getting crap about it.)
• Rap and hip hop are largely a product of black culture.
• There are some non-black rap artists - most notably Eminem.
• A large part of black culture has absolutely nothing to do with either rap or hip hop.

Carefully read what I wrote above, Gene. My logic is sound.

If you don't see my words or logic expressed elsewhere, then you must be living in a cave. Even Jay Leno had a joke about it Friday, where he says GW sent an e-mail to Imus thanking him for getting Iraq out of the press.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Originally posted by Valkenar:

"Or is there some reason your kids are particularly likely to turn bad?"

Maybe because they're Irish.

Interesting...

Conan O'Brian had a pretty fascinating line of humor going on within the past few months. He commented on the ability of the Irish to laugh at themselves, and take a hit from the peanut gallery. He launched a tirade of "racist" comments against the Irish to make his point. It was just... funny.

I have a personal theory as to why that is so. It's one I keep to my chest, because I like to hear what others think about this. And it isn't because the Irish were never discriminated against. They were... And it isn't because they are white. Other white ethnic groups don't take to jokes about their ethnicity so well.

In any case, wouldn't it be nice if we all could laugh at ourselves? In my view, that would be a sign that we've all made a lot of progress.

Touché, fivedragons!

- Bill

[IJ]

I'm with Dana on not getting it, Bill, not that any of this is the end of the world.

"Black people" don't have a group vote like a state in the electoral college. "Black people" are widely varying individuals with different backgrounds (genetic and cultural), opinions, religions, and everything else. "They" are never going to agree about anything. They're also not responsible for rap music nor are they obligated to stop it. It's inconsistent that some black individuals are probably angry at imus and not at abusive rap, but that goes for some white people, too, i wager... and they're allowed. The reason why some people think that blacks can't be racist* is because they don't have the institutional power to enforce racist thought. Whites still hold most of the executive spots and government posts and could... there just isn't a daily concern about being judged for the color of your skin for whites, although it sometimes happens at hiring time these days. It's hard to imagine being stalked at a grocery or ordered to surrender a briefcase because the owner thought a white customer was going to steal some mangos, but I saw it happen to a black guy in a 3 piece suit. It stings more when there's a power imbalance involved in a slur, much as it matters more is the boss oggles you than if the delivery boy does, not that either is excused. Those offenses get more attention. That's how it works... and its easier to understand if you've felt any prejudice with oomph yourself. I agree ideally that you wouldn't encourage disrespect from one of your "own" and attack it from someone else, but there's no law on the books that says you have to decry all trashy behavior at once. I also wager that while the rap is trashy, is disrepectful, and does harm, its not viewed as "racist." Promotes racist stereotypes perhaps; definitely sexist and that should be enough--but not racist. And racism is what they're upset about.

*I disagree however