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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:11 am 
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There was something about Freud saying the Irish were the only people who were immune to psychoanalysis.

:lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:15 am 
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Here's a joke:


Freud said to Father Murphy

I will show you a picture and I want you to tell me the first thing that comes into your head

first picture was of a apple

Father Murphy said "SEX"

second picture was of a tree

Father Murphy said "SEX"

third picture was of a horse

Father Murphy said "SEX"

fourth picture was of a old barn

Father Murphy said "SEX"

freud said " good god man your sex mad"

Father Murphy said "You can talk your the one with all the dirty pictures"


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:40 am 
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Your original statement to start this entire discussion said "blacks need to get their own house in order before pointing an accusing finger at Imus. Don't go telling us what Imus shouldn't say if you don't clean up your rap music."

Blacks = you
Black music = your rap music

Quote:
large part of black culture has absolutely nothing to do with either rap or hip hop.


Funny how you failed to mention this FIRST...and Dana rightfully called you out for it.

I'm not going to parse words with you, Bill. But please say what you mean and mean what you say.

Quote:
The dramatic prevalence of the use of n*****, ho, and b**** in rap and hip hop music.


Has nothing to do with Don Imus and the Rutgers Women's Basketball Team. I will never be convinced that the two are related at all, despite the ill informed water cooler talk and liberal media who wish to score ratings and the conservative media who are trying to somehow blame others for Imus's problems.

Quote:
The silence of "the usual suspect" activists with respect to the prevalence of hate language in rap and hip hop music.


Since I don't pay attention "the usual suspect", I am not in a position to judge this as true or not. And I suspect the same is true of anyone else participating in these discussions as well.

Quote:
My logic is sound.


Took you a while to get there...but you still seem to want to compare and contrast the outrage over Imus/Rutgers with the seeming silence over Hip-Hop lyrics. Not buying for an instant. And I do see your logic expressed elsewhere...and I'm buying what they are selling either.

Have a relaxing Patriot's Day :usa !


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:37 pm 
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Location: Somerville, ma.
Bill Glasheen wrote:
I made sure I quoted this "as is" so all could see the flawed logic in your question, Justin.


Well, I do see the alternative to what I said, but I chose to err on the side of not insulting your family/parenting methods.

Quote:
It is a statistical certainty that prison is overrepresented by that part of the population where the men came from families without a dad at home.


Sure, and prison is overrepresented by people with dark skin too. Doesn't mean squat in terms of proving causation. That's why I tried to point out that you need a study that isolates the parenting factor.

Unlike with race, however, I do believe that single-parent family situations do contribute to the problem. However, I think that the problem contributes more to creating single-parent family situations than vice versa. In other words, the break down of the family is both a symptom and a cause.

Quote:
Just wait until you have a couple (or more) of teenagers around the house, Justin. ;)


Not all teenagers are the same. They really aren't.

Quote:
[*] Nowhere above did I say "nearly 100% of single-mom kids grow up rotten or in prison"


True enough. So what was the point, then? To invite people to critique your family?

Quote:
My personal experience is an interesting anecdote which helps personalize the reams of data about boys growing up in homes without fathers.


If you're using a personal anecdote to personalize a point you're making, then that means you are trying to make the point . If you're trying to make a point other than the one illustrated by your anecdote, you need to point it out. For example, if I say that "I know with nearly 100% assurance that if I drink cyanide, I will die", then it certainly looks like I'm trying to make the point that cyanide is almost universally fatal? If my point were really that it's safe to eat apple seeds despite the small amount of cyanide in them, why would I illustrate it by saying something else? Maybe you weren't arguing for near-certain doom for single-parent families in general, but it looked for all the world like you were trying to illustrate exactly that point with your anecdote.

Quote:
[*] Many in the media and in water cooler conversations have called "hypocracy" when several of "the usual suspects" in the activist community (e.g. Sharpton and Jackson) professed "shock" ...
...
[*] The silence of "the usual suspect" activists with respect to the prevalence of hate language in rap and hip hop music.


What silence?
http://media.www.thehilltoponline.com/m ... 4105.shtml
http://www.chartattack.com/damn/2005/03/2207.cfm
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... ckson.html

They have spoken out. I'm not a huge fan of either of them, but it doesn't look to me like they're trying to argue for a double standard.

The flaw in your logic is that you seem to think there's some sort of hierarchy of outrage that needs to be observed. That two particular famous black men have no business complaining about a racist comment just because some other black men use racist language in their music. Why? Why should they have to wait until all rap music has been cleaned up to address anything else? As Gene says, there's no connection. Yeah, I've seen that logic expressed elsewhere, and I think it's flawed in those contexts too.

In fact, the most telling thing is the use of the word "hypocrisy" to describe this. It implies that Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton are somehow responsible for the lyrics in rap music. And why? Just because they're black too? Put it this way: I do Uechi, but I will speak out against inter-style trash-talking, even though there are some people in Uechi who talk trash. Would it be hypocritical of me to rebut a hypothetical Goju guy's statement that Uechi stinks, just because there are some Uechi guys out there who might say Goju stinks?

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- Justin Powell


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 Post subject: My 2 cents...
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:24 pm 
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If we wish to encourage more contributions to the forums, perhaps a bit more slack in critiquing posts should be considered.

Bill Glasheen is a prodigious contributor here and if every word and sentence he writes is going to be dissected and held to thesis criticism, as in this thread, average people (like me) will be afraid to write anything for fear of being misunderstood and criticized.

Quote:
Yes, blacks need to get their own house in order before pointing an accusing finger at Imus. Don't go telling us what Imus shouldn't say if you don't clean up your rap music. But still... No excuse.


I don't know about everyone else, but I read this as more of an accusation of the black leaders who are jumping all over Imus, but strangely silent about rap culture.

Yes, I can see how Bill's words might have been "better stated", but then the same could be said about 90% of the posts, if critiqued in the same manner.

As stated at the beginning.. just my 2 cents worth. (OK, yes... 2 cents today isn't worth what it was when the saying was created.. I should have said "just my 10 dollars worth") :)

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GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:43 pm 
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I have very thick skin on this matter. I really don't care what people think of me. Throw all the labels you want. But all it does is hide a very real, scary problem.

I lived that problem. I grew up in Alan Iverson's neighborhood. He is but one anecdote - a man who got a second chance in life because a governor pardoned him. And he only got that second chance because he could play basketball. Most of the rest of us humans have to do it the hard way.

If it makes you feel better to throw a label at me, then go right ahead. But it won't stop people who care from speaking up - because THE PROBLEMS NEED TO BE CONFRONTED.

We don't need more classes in self esteem. We need people to be accountable for their actions. We need young men to grow up respecting women, and not thinking it's cool to impregnate them and run.

It's one thing to call a woman a b**** and a ho. It's quite something else to treat her like one, and then create a culture that celebrates it. It takes a much bigger man to be a good father - irrespective of whether or not you like the hand you have been dealt in life.

Quote:
When I heard there was a flap about remarks Bill Cosby made at a big Washington commemoration of the anniversary of Brown vs. Board of Education, I instantly hatched a big fat preconceived notion.

Cosby used the high profile and somber setting to issue biting, direct and sometimes sarcastic swipes at things he finds unacceptable and destructive in the black community. "Ladies and gentlemen, the lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal," he said, according to The Washington Post. "These people are not parenting. They are buying things for kids -- $500 sneakers for what? And won't spend $200 for 'Hooked on Phonics.'" Though few would disagree with what he said, few say it in public.

I heard that the twin pillars of political censorship -- liberal political correctness and black political correctness -- were taking Cosby down.

And that, I preconceived, would make a great column: Bill Cosby, an incomparable philanthropist and social satirist, gets attacked by the political correctness police for speaking his mind, telling some hard truths and airing some dirty laundry.

But the facts got in the way of a good story.

There was no chorus of criticism.

Quite to the contrary, Cosby's remarks were embraced by several of the leading black columnists in the country: DeWayne Wickham, Clarence Page, Colbert King, Leonard Pitts, Jr., and Thomas Sowell.

Kweisi Mfume, the NAACP president who was on stage with Cosby, said later that not only did he agree with Cosby, not only did he make similar points in his own speeches, but that he had just heard the same points made by the philosophers in his barbershop.
- CBS News


- Bill


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:26 pm 
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Location: Somerville, ma.
Bill Glasheen wrote:
I have very thick skin on this matter. I really don't care what people think of me. Throw all the labels you want. But all it does is hide a very real, scary problem.


I don't think you're a racist, Bill, but you did made a very presumptuous statement about whether two black individuals have any business critiquing a white individual's offensive comments. And you followed it up

Has anyone here suggested that there aren't problems in certain black neighborhoods? Has anyone suggested that you're wrong about the culture of violence? Nobody is suggesting silencing discussion of these problems. They are serious problems, and they do need addressing, I agree 100%.

What the existence of these problems doesn't mean, is that racist statements made by popular disk jockeys are a non-issue. Now, honestly, I think the whole Imus thing is overblown, and the team could've ignored it as the ramblings of an idiot. At the same time, I have no problem with the,standing up and basically saying "Don Imus is a jerk for saying that."

The media feeding-frenzy is something else entirely, but it's just not true that Al Sharpton has ignored rap lyrics.

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- Justin Powell


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:49 pm 
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Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Justin wrote:

I don't think you're a racist, Bill, but you did made a very presumptuous statement about whether two black individuals have any business critiquing a white individual's offensive comments. And you followed it up

Absofreakinlutely!!

:multi: :multi: :multi:

Did you watch Dateline last night? Hoda Kotke interviewed a group of African American women from about 3 different generations.

One young woman was 17 years old. She appeared to be a promising young student with a mom who was a professional. In her words, she didn't know who Don Imus was. I don't watch Don Imus; I don't have cable. I know exactly how she felt.

Don Imus is the whipping boy. But beating up on Don Imus doesn't solve the root problem.

The only benefit of the hypocracy is that it let brewing feelings come to the surface. These women had much to say.

But sadly, most of them felt that the dialogue would go away, and then it would be business as usual.


Image

Quote:
Rick: How can you close me up? On what grounds?

Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!

{a croupier hands Renault a pile of money}
Croupier: Your winnings, sir.

Captain Renault: {sotto voce} Oh, thank you very much.

{aloud}
Captain Renault: Everybody out at once!



- Bill


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:00 pm 
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Follow the money trail, folks. Who is funded by whom? Who gets a pass because they fund various political machines and financial enterprises?

It's been talked about a LOT on the news lately.

It is what it is.

- Bill


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:09 pm 
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Location: Boston
Wow, as I lazily typed my post 2+ pages of posts appeared. Way late. Interesting.

I think the funy thing here is that everyone probably agrees on 90-95% of this. Is it too far off to say...

Don Imus is a loser... deserves to be censured. In my view, deserves obscurity (a la Kramer) more than continued controversy.

"Racist" terms coming from people of that race mean completely different things than terms coming from others. Two black people have something of a community when they exchange the terms, just as married people exchange pats on the butt, but a white person is a lot less likely to have that community especially if speaking generally, and he's going to offend people doing so, much as he would patting everyone on the butt.

and how about this...

People don't HAVE to critique the racism perpetuating behavior of blacks before attacking that of whites, but it would be sensible and good of them to do so, and to admit that ongoing glorification of gansta culture is harmful, whereas Imus' behavior is more a symptom of a problem (discreetly held opinions more common than we'd wish to admit) and set off a reaction largely to that background?

Anti-civil litigation Bill: you don't want these kids to sue... should they have to make up all their legal fees and lost wages themselves?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:17 pm 
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I don't want to encourage the familes to sue, Ian. For one, all it will do is feed the trial lawyers. The "victims" rarely get a lot more than the satisfaction of torturing someone for a long while - all while distracting themselves from getting on with life.

I'd rather see tort reform. I'd rather see the proposed legislation pass that was suggested by the North Carolina AG.

I'd rather see Naifong in jail, and a young lady get help. Talk about a pair of troubled individuals finding comfort in each other...

- Bill


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:19 pm 
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Quote:
HOMER: So, I realized that being with my family is more important than being cool.

BART: Dad, what you just said was powerfully uncool.

HOMER: You know what the song says: "It's hip to be square"?

LISA: That song is so lame.

HOMER: So lame that it's... cool?

BART AND LISA: No.

MARGE: Am I cool, kids?

BART AND LISA: No.

MARGE: Good. I'm glad. And that's what makes me cool, not caring, right?

BART AND LISA: No.

MARGE: Well, how the hell do you be cool? I feel like we've tried everything here.

HOMER: Wait, Marge. Maybe if you're truly cool, you don't need to be told you're cool.

BART: Well, sure you do.

LISA: How else would you know?
- The Simpsons


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:29 pm 
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Today Bill, there will be no tort reform. Neither would tort reform prevent this again--what NIfong did wasn't tort. And tort reform won't compensate these people, who might be dealing with some bigtime financial devastation, or who knows, not being able to get that 3rd home; I don';t know their situation. In any case you're proposing that they shoulder this whole travesty themselves. And what is this befell you, Bill? What if it put the education and home of your wife and kids at risk? You'd want nothing, on principle?

Perhaps what would be best would be for attorneys to oversee a minimally antagnostic effort to award just compensation, and take home fair compensation in porportion to their time, not their usualy 97% take of a large settlement? There must be some way to ensure their compensation at the start without needing a potential Erin Brokovich style windfall as a carrot to prod participation.

Delayed nonsequitor thought: is there any chance that you and yours developed different complementary roles in the home, with you as the rule enforcer, but that she might adapt if you were kidnapped by aliens? Your kids don't seem THAT rotteness prone, from what i've heard.

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--Ian


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:16 pm 
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Quote:
but I read this as more of an accusation of the black leaders who are jumping all over Imus, but strangely silent about rap culture.


Imus and hip-hop lyrics are two different things. There is no relationship between the two.

Bill wrote "blacks". Not "black leaders". Not "Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson". Not "black hip-hop artists". He wrote "blacks". It speaks for itself. But as I mentioned, I am not going to parse words with him. He can write whatever he wishes for publci consumption.

We are assuming that these "black leaders" are silent about the abusive lyrics in black hip-hop music. Again, I don't pay attention to hip-hop music or its detractors. But I'm not going to believe this to be true on faith alone.

Gene


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 Post subject: Gene..
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:30 pm 
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When was the last time you heard Rev Al or Jesse demanding that rap music be banned from the public airways?

Not all blacks were seen in public, participating in the public lynching of Imus. So when I saw "blacks" mentioned by Bill, only two registered in my brain.

I bet most people understood what Bill was saying, even if he wasn't as politically correct as some would like.

Bill Crosby has earned the right (in spite of his shortcomings) to say pretty much the same thing Bill is saying.

Don't get me wrong Gene, I understand your concern over accuracy and writing "exactly" what you mean, but for those of us who probably write a lot more than we should, often times, we don't labor over those PC words and terms as much as we should.

In spite of being pompous and a hopeless "know-it-all" :) Bill's commentaries are cutting-edge and most often are intelligent and accurate editorials. . . something you don't see very often in the general press.

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GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"


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