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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:31 pm 
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Location: Weymouth, MA US of A
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Perhaps what would be best would be for attorneys to oversee a minimally antagnostic effort to award just compensation, and take home fair compensation in porportion to their time, not their usualy 97% take of a large settlement? There must be some way to ensure their compensation at the start without needing a potential Erin Brokovich style windfall as a carrot to prod participation.


In deference to GEM's earlier post, I'm going to refrain from giving this foolish hyperbole the a@@-kicking it so richly deserves. But to say that lawyers get "97% take a large settlement" is just too much. Much easier to make the case using real facts and knowledge then using this.

But you are right on one thing, Ian. We bemoan the fact that legal defense of these false charges costs perhaps 7 figures...but then won't allow anything to be done about it?

Gene


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:41 pm 
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GEM-Sensei. Again, I don't pay one bit of attention to Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson. Therefore, I cannot give any informed answer as to what those two say or do. Likewise, neither do I listen to or otherwise pay attention to hip-hop music or that part of the music industry. So I cannot give any informed answer for what goes on there either. If someone who knows what Al and Jesse do day in and day out wish to objectively enlighten me, I'm all ears. But that person does not exist on this forum. Political correctness has nothing to do with it, George. And I see nothing "Politically Correct" about saying what you mean and mean what you say. A broad brush was used when none was applicable...and I am not the only one who noticed.

But I am through parsing words on this one.

Have an nice Patriot's Day :usa

Gene


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:14 am 
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Someone from Newsday agrees with Bill. Image
Quote:
It's more than just Imus
Shaun Powell
SPORTS COLUMNIST

April 12, 2007

In retrospect, outraged people shouldn't have united and screamed "blank you" to Don Imus the last few days. No, instead, we should've stuck out our hand and said, "Thank you."

We should feel indebted to a shriveled, unfunny, insensitive frog for being so ignorant that he actually did us all a favor. He woke society the hell up. He grabbed it by the throat, shook hard and ordered us to take a long, critical look at ourselves and the mess we've made and ignored for much too long. He made us examine the culture and the characters we've created for ourselves, our impressionable young people and our future.

Had Imus not called a bunch of proud and innocent young women "nappy-headed hos," would we be as ashamed of what we see as we are today?

Or, to quote Rutgers coach C. Vivian Stringer: "Have we really lost our moral fiber?"

And our minds as well?

I'm not sure if the last few days will serve as a watershed moment for this MTV, middle-finger, screw-you generation. Probably not, according to my hunch. A short time from now, the hysteria will turn to vapor, folks will settle back into their routines, somebody will pump up the volume on the latest poison produced by hip-hop while Al Sharpton and the other racial ambulance chasers will find other guilt-ridden white folks to shake for fame and cash. In five minutes, the entire episode of Imus and his strange idea of humor will be older than his hairstyle. Lessons learned will be lessons forgotten.

I wish I were wrong about that last part. But I doubt it, because any minute now, black people will resume calling themselves bitches and hos and the N-word and in the ultimate sign of hypocrisy, neither Rutgers nor anyone else will call a news conference about that.

Because when we really get to the root of the problem, this isn't about Imus. This is about a culture we -- meaning black folks -- created and condoned and packaged for white power brokers to sell and shock jocks like Imus to exploit. Can we talk?

Tell me: Where did an old white guy like Imus learn the word "ho"?

Was that always part of his vocabulary? Or did he borrow it from Jay-Z and Dave Chappelle and Snoop Dogg?

What really disappointed me about that exhausting Rutgers news conference, which was slyly used as a recruiting pitch by Stringer, was the absence of the truth and the lack of backbone and courage. Black women had the perfect opportunity to lash out at their most dangerous oppressors -- black men -- and yet they kept the focus on a white guy.

It was a tremendous letdown for me, personally and professionally. I wanted Stringer, and especially her players, many of whom listen to rap and hip-hop, to take Nelly to task. Or BET. Or MTV. Or the gangsta culture that is suffocating our kids. They had the ear and eye of the nation trained upon them, and yet these women didn't get to the point and the root of the matter. They danced around it, and I guess I should've known better, because black people still refuse to lash out against those black people who are doing harm to us all.

Honestly, I wasn't holding my breath for Sharpton or Jesse Jackson, a pair of phony and self-appointed leaders, because they have their agendas and financial stakes. I was hoping 10 young women, who have nothing on the line, who are members of a young culture, would train their attention to within the race, name names and say enough is enough. But they didn't, and I was crushed.

You should walk around the playground and the elementary and high schools today and listen to how young black people speak to each other, treat each other and tease each other. You'd be ashamed. Next, sample some of their CDs and look at the video games they're playing. And while you're at it, blame yourself for funding this garbage, for allowing your kids to support these companies and for not taking a stand against it or the so-called artists making it happen.

Black folks, for whatever reason, can be their own worst enemy. The last several days, the media had us believe it was Don Imus. But deep down, we know better.

Copyright 2007 Newsday Inc.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:45 am 
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Guys, they do complain about rap lyrics. I already posted a couple links showing this.

When was the last time Al Sharpton called for a ban on rap music on the radio? 2005.

They have both called for a boycott.

It's just that nobody pays attention.

Honestly, whenever people trot out the "well they call themselves names" argument, it really just sounds to me like a way to ignore the problem. A way of saying "well I don't have to care about these people, because they're obviously doing it to themselves." I don't think that's what's going on here, but it sure does come across that way.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:27 am 
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Justin, It's not an issue of complaining about something, it's a matter of doing something about it. It's not about calling for boycotts, it's about not buying into a life style (when you live in a good neighborhood) that glorifies criminal behavior. Imus told the girls that his job was to make fun of fat people, to which one of the girls asked why? So why would one want to treat people poorly?

As the coach asked, "Have we really lost our moral fiber?"

And that's a question that does not have a color line.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:16 pm 
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Imus' statement about the women was an action. The Rutgers women were entitled to respond to it. Those are the two parties involved.

So my initial point was that the women who were called a name by a man are 100% entitled to respond. They did. I think they did it quite well. I think they deserved to be able to address their issue directly, as a stand alone issue, without having to "stand for" or "stand against" anyone or anything.

Enter Cirque Media...

Remember "All in the Family"?

Quote:
All in the Family
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
For other uses, see All in the Family (disambiguation).
All in the Family

All in the Family is an acclaimed American situation comedy that was originally broadcast on the CBS television network from January 12, 1971 until April 8 1979. In September 1979, the show was retooled under the title, Archie Bunker's Place. This version of the sitcom lasted another four years, finally ending its run in 1983.

Produced by Norman Lear and based on the British television series Til Death Us Do Part, the show broke ground in its depiction of issues previously deemed unsuitable for U.S. network television comedy, such as racism, homosexuality, women's liberation, rape, breast cancer and impotence.

The show was wildly popular, and ranked #1 in the yearly Nielsen ratings from 1971 to 1976. Only one other program, The Cosby Show, has tied All in the Family in terms of years at the top of the ratings. In 2002, it ranked #4 on TV Guide's list of the 50 greatest TV shows of all time. TV Guide also named the show's protagonist, Archie Bunker, TV's greatest character of all time.


So my point is that there is a difference between how people treat each other on a one-to-one personal basis vs how members of the media interact and play.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:32 pm 
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MikeK wrote:
Justin, It's not an issue of complaining about something, it's a matter of doing something about it.


Well all they did with this Imus thing is complain about it, right? It's not like they were the ones that fired him. So if complaining about rap doesn't count, then complaining about Imus doesn't count.

What is it you think they should be doing about gangsta rap lyrics?

Quote:
It's not about calling for boycotts, it's about not buying into a life style (when you live in a good neighborhood) that glorifies criminal behavior.


How are Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson buying into a lifestyle that glorifies criminal behavior?

Also, this thing isn't just a black wand white issue, it's a men and women issue, as Dana may have been subtley eluding to. The focus has been on race because Imus used supposedly "black" slang, but there's also the issue that "hoes" is a gender insult.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:43 pm 
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Forgive my ignorance, and as a total outsider to the issue. But why is this a race question? If the basketball team was white would the Imus comment have been OK? If Imus was black would his line be justifiable? Why do women - black or white- stand by and let it happen? Where are all those women's lib people when you need them? If the media - be that a talk show or the music industry- only listens to money then let's talk in a language they understand. I believe women are still the largest single buying entity in this country. Businesses cater to what sells. If you buy the crap, crap is what you'll get.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:53 pm 
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Justin,
The issue is about whatever you want it to be. For me it's more about everyday civility and how it's been trashed. It's about how making people look like fools is the norm (ala Michael Moore) and glorifying stupid behavior (pick a reality show).

And I'm not talking about Sharpton or Jackson but about the people who buy into certain lifestyles that goes past just youthful rebellion.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:12 pm 
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I am not Justin, but that's ok :P :lol:


Quote:
It's about how making people look like fools is the norm (ala Michael Moore) and glorifying stupid behavior (pick a reality show). And I'm not talking about Sharpton or Jackson but about the people who buy into certain lifestyles that goes past just youthful rebellion.


You are reiterating my point.
Somebody watches these shows, somebody listens to this rap music, somebody buys those movie tickets. If there was no demand there would be no supply.

Now if you want to discuss WHY is it that there is a demand, I think we'll need to open a separate thread for that topic.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:29 pm 
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dejsis wrote:
Forgive my ignorance, and as a total outsider to the issue. But why is this a race question?


Because "nappy-headed hoes" is a racial insult, and that's what Imus said.

Quote:
If the basketball team was white would the Imus comment have been OK?
...
If Imus was black would his line be justifiable?


Issues of insult are all about perception. Since I'm not the one offended, I can't speak for those who are.

My guess is that if the team was white it would mostly just be confusing, but still offensive on both racial and gender grounds.

My guess is that if Imus was black it probably would be less (but still somewhat) racially offensive. I don't think this is specific to black or white, male or female. It seems to be pretty consistently true that humans take ribbing better when the person doing the mocking is including themselves.
If it were one of the teammates saying "We're a bunch of nappy-headed hoes" it wouldn't be as offensive to the team. The "hoes" part, coming from just about anyone, is still going to be offensive.

Quote:
Why do women - black or white- stand by and let it happen?
...
If you buy the crap, crap is what you'll get.


My jaded response to this is that female, male, black, white, old, young and everyone else, 99% of people are too brainwashed to see anything as being more important than the freedom to buy buy buy. Boycotts rarely do anything because we've turned ourselves into a legion of mindless consumer zombies unwilling to make any material sacrifice whatsoever for what we supposedly believe in.

That said, Imus being fired is, more or less, people refusing to stand by and let it happen. CBS doesn't want to see consumers boycott their station, so they fire the guy responsible. They just did it before the public got a chance to boycott.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:42 pm 
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Quote:
because we've turned ourselves into a legion of mindless consumer zombies unwilling to make any material sacrifice whatsoever for what we supposedly believe in.


Speak for yourself.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:05 pm 
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Ditto


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:11 pm 
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Dana

Have I thanked you yet for allowing this discussion on your forum? I owe you.

Dana wrote:

Imus' statement about the women was an action. The Rutgers women were entitled to respond to it. Those are the two parties involved.

So my initial point was that the women who were called a name by a man are 100% entitled to respond. They did. I think they did it quite well. I think they deserved to be able to address their issue directly, as a stand alone issue, without having to "stand for" or "stand against" anyone or anything.

On the surface, this seems fair enough. But...

Imagine you make a living harvesting oysters. You find starfish in your catch. You chop the little buggers into dozens of pieces, and throw them overboard.

There... You feel better now. 8)

At the end of the day, have you solved your starfish problem?

- Bill


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:41 pm 
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For what it's worth...

Many feel the root cause here is very, very deep. It quite possibly goes back to Lyndon Johnson and his Great Society program.

The goal was noble enough. He wanted to lift people out of the clutches of poverty. And much of that poverty existed in black neighborhoods, where a history of slavery and prejudice put them behind the eight ball.

Fast forward a few decades. The problem with some of these programs is that it removed the traditional support system for black culture (religion and/or social networks), and substituted another. And with this new support system, we have a financial incentive for young black men not to hang around when they impregnate a young woman. We get 2, 3, and 4 generations of girls having kids and being asked to play the role of mother and father.

Some have argued that this destroyed the social fiber of the black community. Whether or not it did, the statistical trends are alarming.

Some welfare reform already has happened because of all this - most notably in the Clinton administration. It took a Democrat to take steps towards fixing an LBJ problem without creating a class warfare scenario.

Meanwhile... We now have large segments of the black community where doing prison time is almost a rite of passage. And why wouldn't someone want social identity to go along with ethnic pride?

Gansta is as gansta does. Inject musical talent, and we have a marketable product.

But there's a difference between singing the blues and glorifying objectionable behavior while making a buck on it.

- Bill


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