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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:02 pm 
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Location: London, Ontario
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Okey dokey,

Let's get back to concrete suggestions for Norm to try out with his students.


I have the pleasure and priveledge of working with several female martial artists ranging from teens to pentagenerians. I don't know whether this will help anyone looking in at this forum, but here are some of the things we do that seem to help in addition to the curriculum.

1) Everyone gets their own, personal 'slap stick' to take home. It looks a little like a cricket bat and is made of basswood, so it's light-weight. Their homework is to spend a little time each day stiking themselves. Every couple of weeks we review some of the excercises they can do with the stick and we discuss some of their experiences and their progress. The homework gives newbies a chance to become more comfortable with toughening at their own pace and in the comfort of their own space and it gives the more experienced karateka a chance to work a bit harder than they could otherwise do with out a partner. Obviously, one doesn't absolutely need a stick - one can strike themselves and practise some of their fists, but there's something about the stick that is humourous and adds to the vitality of the conversations we have (like punch and judy slapstick??). Anyway, it lends itself to good humour and it seems to work!

2) Another eyes closed excercise we do (I mentioned one earlier in this forum) is to place a blind folded subject in the centre of a group. members of the group get a 'secret number'. When I call a number the prearranged attacker moves in with something simple (no injuries allowed!) and the subject must use their senses to respond. I think that because they cannot see the group around them it encourages them to treat everyone equally and it emphasizes the importance of correct body positioning. we review the subject's performance during and after to foster chances for improvement. And everyone has the opportunity to be the subject so it keeps them all on a level field.

I hope this helps. I think it's an important subject.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:54 am 
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jorvik wrote:
If you think like that it won't matter :lol: .because you will lose :roll:


:roll: petitio principii

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:39 am 
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I`m saying you can ramp and increase gradually when you have respect/trust and a good attitude/ego .

Im` submitting progression/slight pressure and constantly increasing the comfort zone , until you get to a level real pressure can be applied . If you agree great , i`m sure in retrospect you can see that was my initial point .



but I`m done here , thanks for the thread . and it`s fine if you agree/disagree too .

But I am on topic .


Well first Marcus let me make one pont that folks seem a bit confused about....on these forums if we all agreed with everything everyone else said then we wouldn't have a forum and I won't call you a cissy or a coward if you disagree with what I say :lol: .......it's the only way that a forum really can exist........

I see were you are coming from now on the issue of training......you are saying that with the right approache women can move from non contact to contact sparring.
I don't agree with that , because I believe that there are lots of folks out there who treat their karate like their squash club or their golf afternoons.....................they are not that committed. They don't want to go any further than they have, to them it's two nights a week and that is it :D
With the women in Norm's school.he may try all sorts of things make them look at their opponent and they may not like his efforts and leave, they may feel that he is picking on them.
It is very hard for a lot of Uechi clubs to keep folks anyway............the local Uechi club that I went to was ok for the first month or so, until the head instructor came back and had everybody doing body conditioning there were about 10 new students all from the local University...who just stopped going after that........they weren't prepared to do that and off they went. I think with most clubs it is best to do a little of everything if you want to keep folks that way if there is something they don't like , they won't have to spend all the class doing it :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:01 am 
Quote:
I don't agree with that , because I believe that there are lots of folks out there who treat their karate like their squash club or their golf afternoons.....................they are not that committed. They don't want to go any further than they have, to them it's two nights a week and that is it



you dont agree because theres lots of folks pretending to improve ? , doesnt mean some cant actually work hard to improve .

I gave up on saving karate in it`s entirity a long time ago :lol: :lol: , but any individual can improve , aint easy , but is possible .

If they dont want to let em leave , is it really supposed to be a popularity contest ?


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 Post subject: Ray/jorvick
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:40 am 
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Ray/jorvick,
You keep addressing the people instead of what they say -- this method of posting is unproductive and distracting from the dialog and it has nothing to do with being from the U.K.

Here's an example:
Marcus/Stryke talked about his ability to fight a progression of variously skilled people, using a personal example. You told him you didn't think it mattered if he could do something.

I'm going to assume that Marcus didn't start out on day one being able to fight a progression of variously skilled people. He went on to stay how he learned how to do that. Instead of commenting on the method he put forward you chose to comment on Marcus'/Stryke's personal ability.

Here's another example:
Chris McKaskell posted something about his belief about stare-downs being (more often than not) a ritual engaged in by two people willing to see a physical resolution. Instead of addressing the strategy, you wrote that he would he would have a problem in a physical altercation. That is out of line no matter how many cute little smiley faces you put after your comments.

You don't know Chris McKaskell and you don't have crystal ball predicting the future. Yes, you have street experience and dojo experience, and lots of other kinds of experiences - those are all important and valid but they don't matter when you start in on telling people what they can do.

So stop countering each and every post by someone by starting off with a personal comment directed at them or their abilities and simply contribute what you what you contribute. Taking personal pot shots at people are not contributions and they are off-putting. This isn't cultural, this isn't people "not getting you" this is about your practice of posting about the person instead of the idea or concept. So from here forward, post ideas, concepts, strategies, etc.

Thanks,
Dana

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Last edited by Dana Sheets on Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:46 am 
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Hi Chris,

Thanks for posting those ideas. I've also sent students hope with a conditioning stick and seem amazing growth in their confidence because of it.

On the circle thing - I'm not sure I understand how the drill can work safely unless it is done at less than full speed. Do you start in slo-mo and speed up?

Also for that drill - can people do any sort of attack (headlocks, bear hugs and such) or do you keep it focused on punching and kicking?

Thanks,
Dana

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:21 pm 
Dana for what it's worth :?

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"Here's an example:
Marcus/Stryke talked about his ability to fight a progression of variously skilled people, using a personal example. You told him you didn't think it mattered if he could do something.


I'm going to assume that Marcus didn't start out on day one being able to fight a progression of variously skilled people. He went on to stay how he learned how to do that. Instead of commenting on the method he put forward you chose to comment on Marcus'/Stryke's personal ability. "

Dana you have to take things in the context that they were said :roll:
We were talking about "WOMEN" and their abilities..I have spoken to Marcus on many occasions and I know of his abilities. I know he is highly skilled in shotokan has done some mixed MMA has fought in international tournements ......I'll be honest Anybody would have their hands full trying to fight him.I certainly wouldn't like to...............BUT what he can do is irrelevant when talking about a young women who can't even sparr properly because she can't even look at someone.I'm sure Marcus wouldn't have that problem :P

Quote
"Here's another example:
Chris McKaskell posted something about his belief about stare-downs being (more often than not) a ritual engaged in by two people willing to see a physical resolution. Instead of addressing the strategy, you wrote that he would he would have a problem in a physical altercation. That is out of line no matter how many cute little smiley faces you put after your comments.

You don't know Chris McKaskell and you don't have crystal ball predicting the future. Yes, you have street experience and dojo experience, and lots of other kinds of experiences - those are all important and valid but they don't matter when you start in on telling people what they can do."


Well get your folks right for a start it Was Mhosea :roll:
and here is what was said
Quote
I'm not presupposing anything about what will ensue. I'm saying that if you do this and a fight ensues, it is not self-defense, which is legal. Rather, it's fighting, which is generally illegal. Nobody's going to buy the "I was staring him down to prevent a fight" argument.
to which I said
Quote

If you think like that it won't matter .because you will lose

And I stand by that.in any altercation the law abiding guy the good guy is always at a disadvantage.because they have to react as opposed to act...............and if you are going to add layers of conditions on top of that.....awe GEE how will it look in court :oops: :oops: ..or if they see me go into my HARD Sanchin stance .they'll know that I do the deadly art of Karate and my hands are lethal weapon 8O 8O ...what will the Jury think :roll: ......

Do you think the bad guys think like that?? do you think they would be bothered by any of those reasons. :? :?

Quote
Ray/jorvick,
You keep addressing the people instead of what they say -- this method of posting is unproductive and distracting from the dialog and it has nothing to do with being from the U.K.


Well I think I've shown you that I haven't done that at all, I have addressed what has been said...............allbeit in my own manner.

And as to being from the UK there are two things. one is the GUYS that I am talking to are GUYS....and in the UK that is how we talk to each other.....it's the women who pussy foot around trying not to upset each others feelings..I'm sure if they were offended that they would tell me in no uncertain terms.....and the second thing you must know about folks in the UK ..is we don't take kindly to folks talking down to us like an overbearing
School mistress :evil: .If you take issue with what I had to say or the manner in which I express myself you could have PM'd me, and I would have apologised....as it is you choose to get on your high horse and talk down to me..........You won't have that problem again..I am gone ...cute smileys and all :lol: :lol: :multi: :multi: :multi: :multi: :multi:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:47 pm 
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FWIW, I read Ray's posts in the manner that he described.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:58 pm 
Quote:
BUT what he can do is irrelevant when talking about a young women who can't even sparr properly because she can't even look at someone.I'm sure Marcus wouldn't have that problem


It`s totally relevant , I was a weak sickly kid when I started and if the same progression hadnt been taken with me , I would of lasted all of a few weeks . It`s about havinmg the skills and knowledge to teach it , and having the will to work through it .

No one gets there overnight , not even the alpha males .


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:37 pm 
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jorvik wrote:
And I stand by that.in any altercation the law abiding guy the good guy is always at a disadvantage.because they have to react as opposed to act...............and if you are going to add layers of conditions on top of that.....awe GEE how will it look in court :oops: :oops: ..or if they see me go into my HARD Sanchin stance .they'll know that I do the deadly art of Karate and my hands are lethal weapon 8O 8O ...what will the Jury think :roll: ......

Do you think the bad guys think like that?? do you think they would be bothered by any of those reasons. :? :?


Well, I wasn't bothered by your statement. I mean, for an instant it looked personal, but I know that isn't really your style (as long as one is not a government official, anyway), so I took the "you" in a general way, as in a person who thinks that way would lose. What I had in mind was more along the lines of defusing the fight before it gets to the point of a stare down. Specifically, some of things that Rory has written were floating around in my head, but in fact, I believe that I myself do such things instinctively.

More to the point, however, even if I were to concede that the stare down is an important tool for bravado-related fighting, I don't see how it plays in constructively for a woman versus a physically larger man, especially in a self-defense scenario. It seems to me that actually appearing to be a threat is an important ingredient to the stare down, otherwise the effect could be to increase the likelihood of aggression. Since I think this, I would be reluctant to incorporate this behavior into training. It is part of fighting sports, of course.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:47 pm 
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Location: London, Ontario
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On the circle thing - I'm not sure I understand how the drill can work safely unless it is done at less than full speed. Do you start in slo-mo and speed up?

Also for that drill - can people do any sort of attack (headlocks, bear hugs and such) or do you keep it focused on punching and kicking?


Hi Dana,

Yes, slowish is best to start with - different people have different capacities and in my book it's all about challenging without injuring - slowly ramping it up (bad enough that people can get injured defending themselves on the street, I'll take a safe, challenging Dojo anyday). Some people will never get to any real speed with this, but I think the point is also to challenge the other senses and make one aware of other ways to think/feel about the physical body. So really, it's the person in the middle who dictates the speed of the excercise.

We usually start with simple, crisp, clean punching and kicking attacks then begin moving into messier attacks and close quarters stuff, like wrestling and grappling. It really comes down to your read of the group: the same excercise can take on entirely new meaning depending on the interests and the experience of the group.

Again, this doesn't work for everyone - but, I'm always amazed by how hard and fast you can get going with a blind fold once everyone is in tune. Group meditation seems to help. The most important thing is to be safe and work within individual limits with lots of supervision.

Also, just to clarify, my comment was about 'angry eyes' which doesn't necessaily mean a 'stare down'. I've always practised it more like a Qi-Gong excercise. It's about filling the body up and feeling energized and together, not necessarily about trying to intimidate.

Many thanks.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:24 pm 
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I should think that sensitivity training would go a long way toward helping folks improve in the blindfold drill... :)

I also have used what you could call angry eyes thing... Over the years I have wondered if using the opposite kind of emotional switch would be better though...in order to cultivate a loosening rather than a tightening of the mind and body...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:55 am 
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Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
I was just like the girls described in this thread.

But throw a progression of contact during sparring/drilling, i got better.

I still have an issue with intent and dealing with intent, but it's gotten ALOT better.


Regardless of how big or strong someone is, mindset is immaterial to size.

A small man can be meaner and not blanch at getting hit then a big gigantic muscular man.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:10 pm 
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Over the years I have wondered if using the opposite kind of emotional switch would be better though...in order to cultivate a loosening rather than a tightening of the mind and body...


Hey Jim,

Can you elaborate a little?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:58 pm 
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I think he means to put on a disarmingly pleasant countenance. Wonder if you can do that reliably under stress, however. A fake-looking disarmingly pleasant countenance would be creepy.

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