How do you start your movements?

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How do you start your movements?

Postby Dana Sheets » Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:44 am

How do you begin to move?
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Postby maxwell ainley » Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:55 pm

Hi Dana .


More or less always from different vantage points ,as I have struggled to progress over the years,forinstance my first six months of training on sanchin were exclusivley devoted to nothing but the opening of sanchin .
A outcome of this would be a step towards a animalistic motion ,and comprehension of a animal ,you could say something "tigerish ".

So its just a movement fuelled by me or I ,and this I is divorced from this element that is tigerish ,so that six months turned a I movement into a more tigerish movement .

So with comprehension of a I related move and a animalistic one ,training would change because the I as changed now we are on a animalistic learning curve .
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Postby 2Green » Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:13 pm

Sometimes an open-ended question is asked to fool the person being queried into defining the context, thereby gaining insight into the person's thought process.

A classic example is: "Describe yourself."

So, with caution and no clear idea of what the context is, I would say "from the Dan Tien" in the context of MA principles of techniques and movement, as I understand them.

However, equally correct answers could be: "without concious thought", or also "by visualizing the outcome/intent", or several other neurological or psychological-contexted answers.

( Or, how about " by packing the boxes first!")?

The answer might also vary based on different levels of training and experience.
It's a lot easier to tell a Black Belt to "initiate movements from the Dan Tien", than to tell a 9-year old newbie, and expect the same result.

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Postby Dana Sheets » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:31 pm

Let me ask the question another way.

If the goal of Uechi-ryu is to be able to fight and if fighting involves fast, explosive movements then why in the world would you start training to fight by standing still in sanchin?
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Postby maxwell ainley » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:56 am

Dana Sheets wrote:Let me ask the question another way.

If the goal of Uechi-ryu is to be able to fight and if fighting involves fast, explosive movements then why in the world would you start training to fight by standing still in sanchin?


Hi Dana ,
First of all its the way Kanbun initially instructed a methodology of process to learning sanchin the complete kata .
And again the way to gain insight into why, would be to undergo the method ones own self ,obviously with someone who understands and knows or through trial and error ,the only criterea is one completes the course before becoming judge jury and executioner.
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Postby Dana Sheets » Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:01 pm

I'm going to use the example a senior teacher gave me recently.

If you want someone to go to the post office then you give them clear directions. Go north three blocks, turn left and it will be on your right.

If you want someone to be able to serve in tennis you tell them to build their ability to toss the ball consistently where they want, arch the body backwards during the prep to stretch the muscles for an explosive contraction on impact, inhale on the toss to exhale on the hit, jump up in just this way and visualize the ball behaving in this way so that you hit it this way with the racquet.

If we want students to learn the skills of Uechi-ryu by standing in sanchin then we should be able to clearly explain to them, using clear directions what they are to be doing and what skills they are learning.

Stand with your feet in this position, your body aligned in this way, your arms in this position, use your mind to __________. You are building your skills in ____, __________, and _________ not to mention ________, ________, and ___________.

I don't accept the explanation that we should teach students this way because Kanbun did. We should teach students this way because we know what they will develop, why, and how.

For the record I think standing in sanchin properly, as I understand it at the moment, is extremely difficult to do consistently well and can provide enormous benefit to the student. I do not think the benefits happen mystically or magically deliciously, I think they happen for very specific reasons that must be consciously attended to throughout practice.
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Postby 2Green » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:00 am

This seems to be a totally different question than the original one, which is even better because it addresses some elements of my frustrations of learning Uechi, plus my understanding of what Sanchin is all about.
( For those about to read: I am WAY far Dana's junior in the Uechi world so my comments don't challenge her viewpoints in any way.)

I do not regard "standing in Sanchin" as a fighting stance or tactic that would be used in any "reality" situation.

I have much more to say on this subject but it is late where I am, so I will add more later.

GREAT topic!

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Postby JimHawkins » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:55 am

Dana Sheets wrote:If the goal of Uechi-ryu is to be able to fight and if fighting involves fast, explosive movements then why in the world would you start training to fight by standing still in sanchin?

To load a spring... :)
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Postby maxwell ainley » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:18 am

Dana ,

A good while ago ,we had a private message on methods ,to sum up we agreed there was not one method nowaday's and I have not altered my thinking or feeling upon this .
Uechi-ryu as diversity of choice ,your explanation via a senior teacher is one of many methods of which is valid ,its not by any means the only one .

I take it maybe for granted when I say sanchin ,its positioning etc, etc, is well understood by most ,and every one seems to have a slightly or very different perspective ,from a novice to a advanced performer ,depending on the group or organization .

I mentioned the opening aspect of sanchin ,I also made it quite clear one as not stepped into sanchin dachi yet ,but its out come would be a tigerish motion. This is quite clear.
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Postby Shana Moore » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:34 pm

Dana Sheets wrote:If the goal of Uechi-ryu is to be able to fight and if fighting involves fast, explosive movements then why in the world would you start training to fight by standing still in sanchin?


I can offer a VERY newbie's observations as I struggle to learn the basics of the sanchin stance...

I've noticed that when I properly hold my stance (still rare, but gives me lots of opportunities for improvement :D ) that I feel stronger, rooted, and more balanced. I feel like my body is working as a unit, with all of it behind what I am doing....The REEEEEEST of the time, I feel like I'm working on parts a-c and parts d-Z are still working on thier own directions and goals.....

So, as a small piece of the puzzle, I would say that sanchin helps teach coordination and rootedness. Speed with out those would be...flailing, wouldn't it?

just my .02 cents, and I look forward to learning more from others.
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Postby maxwell ainley » Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:38 pm

Shana Moore wrote:
Dana Sheets wrote:If the goal of Uechi-ryu is to be able to fight and if fighting involves fast, explosive movements then why in the world would you start training to fight by standing still in sanchin?


I can offer a VERY newbie's observations as I struggle to learn the basics of the sanchin stance...

I've noticed that when I properly hold my stance (still rare, but gives me lots of opportunities for improvement :D ) that I feel stronger, rooted, and more balanced. I feel like my body is working as a unit, with all of it behind what I am doing....The REEEEEEST of the time, I feel like I'm working on parts a-c and parts d-Z are still working on thier own directions and goals.....

So, as a small piece of the puzzle, I would say that sanchin helps teach coordination and rootedness. Speed with out those would be...flailing, wouldn't it?

just my .02 cents, and I look forward to learning more from others.


Hi Shana,
Speed will come with time and good practice of course ,the method I have related in brief here ,is or was a very difficult test ,the newbie or a practioner were on a test ,just hearing written info about the test would never ever do any sort of justice to this test ,I have masses of written info on this test ,bits and peices have been posted on the web site .
Normally this written info is taken the wrong way ,bits and peices of what you say Shana are involved in this test ,such as flailing .Good luck with your training .
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Postby Shana Moore » Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:41 pm

Max,
It's nice to know I'm on the right track. I'd be interested in hearing more of this test...are there video clips or more info?

and always..thank you for the encouragement!
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Postby Dana Sheets » Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:17 am

Shana Moore wrote:So, as a small piece of the puzzle, I would say that sanchin helps teach coordination and rootedness. Speed with out those would be...flailing, wouldn't it?


The best short answer ever.

Now...if we can just come up with an equally short answer for "rootedness."

--------------------------------

Max, I have great respect for your chosen path and yes, all paths are valid if progress is achieved. But I've seen many a 15+ year black belt that moves and hits like a green belt...all muscle and no connection. Why would that be if they are spending hours and hours in sanchin?
-----------------------------------------

Neil, if ever we meet I think you'll find our skill and knowledge more similar than different.

I am interested in your perspective that there is naught in sanchin that is fight-worthy...yet the sanchin training remains important. Please do elaborate!

---------------------------------

Jim,
What is the spring loaded against? What provides the compression?

---------------------------------

And finally, another question.

Does sanchin training have to happen in a sanchin stance?
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Postby JimHawkins » Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:54 am

Dana Sheets wrote:Jim,
What is the spring loaded against?

The ground..and our core.
Dana Sheets wrote:What provides the compression?

The joints, muscle and ligaments assisted by gravity.

The "stance" is an energy storage and energy management device. The core of most arts is energy delivery and the stance creates potential energy via storage, loading and lowering of the CG to maximize mass. The stance aligns in some way pointing the way/angle <vector> to power and motion, kinetic energy and finally redirection, the storage of more energy and release..

Later we use the stance or stance springs to load other springs/tools and store more energy when we engage in the clash of the opponent's arms or body with our structure.. Again the storage and management below is to allow for more of the same above. In the end the idea is to take all that energy--yours and his--and direct and release it into the opponent as an abrupt and sudden force that remains until the enemy does not.
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Postby Dana Sheets » Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:11 pm

CG = center of gravity
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