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Hi Dana ,

The fifteen plus years blackbelts must be doing something wrong ,but without actually witnessing this its difficult to make an assessment,maybe a lot of work but lack of understanding of coiling and releasing .

" Does sanchin training have to happen in sanchin stance"

A sterotype picture of sanchin could be ;only sanchin dachi is really seen ,you can be pre programed to that dachi to be dominant .

With the Kanbun methodology you can be de -hypnotized from this ,but its still difficult ,I ref, a very early level in training [how you picture sanchin ]
You could train for great lengths of time on sanchin [Iykyorko ] avoiding the sanchin dachi parts ,and as you become very advanced you could create other movement from those other parts ,and further work those new elements.max.

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max ainley

Shana,

I will be working some dvds hopefully this year ,I will contact you via private message . max.

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max ainley

thank you...always looking for new ways of looking at things!

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Shana

I would like to elaborate on some comments and questions, clarifying my posts and hopefully answering some questions...

Dana said:"If the goal of Uechi-ryu is to be able to fight and if fighting involves fast, explosive movements then why in the world would you start training to fight by standing still in sanchin?"

I don't think that standing in Sanchin is a tool to instill "fighting technique", I think that comes later..
The only time i've ever been instructed to " stand in Sanchin" is to be tested for balance/stability and this is an important lesson to learn.

One of the contradictions about fighting is that we're asked to be "rooted" (which i interpret as " heels planted"), during striking or absorbing, but up on the balls of our feet for mobility in moving.

I did an experiment once where I would do whole Kata for 3, 5, 10 minutes ONLY on the balls of my feet, heels never touching the floor.
What an experience it was to finally lower my heels and feel the incredible "weighted contact" which we take for granted, yet has to be illustrated and felt in training.
Standing in Sanchin is perhaps one way to instill this heels-rooted habit which we are taught is so important in kicking for example.

VERY often we see newbies lifting the heel on a kick to gain height, giving away the whole ground path.
They simply cannot feel their heel lifting, because they are concerned with kicking at the moment.

Another aspect of standing/moving in Sanchin is the concept of "moving balance", which hopefully we become better at over time, but many newbies do not have this ability nor any concept likely to instill it.

((( Case in point: a Brown Belt, senior to me, recently joined our class, out of practice for some years. His balance was so poor he could not complete the opening Hojo Undo's Junbi Undo's which we did only for his benefit.)))

Mr. Mattson stated in one of his books that the balance should be like the centre of a rolling ball; obviously some method was needed to instill this; Sanchin Kata does teach basic mobility and balance of the lower extremeties, while laying the groundwork for the PRINCIPLES of our striking techniques of the upper body.

...So, even just given the above, never mind the confidence factor of receiving blows, etc., I think there is quite a lot of value in the practise of standing/moving in Sanchin.( Especially the turns.)

When it comes to fighting instruction, pretty well any discipline has a training regiment that has the student going "huh? Why am I doing THIS?!" --- like skipping rope or shadow boxing, or tackling a dummy out on the field, or whatever -- things that seem unrelated or irrelevant yet they turn out to be crucial foundations later.

I have more to post on this very insightful question, but I must wait for a while, as I have a busy week coming up.

~N~

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standing still is really a waste of time , its usefull as a demonstration and a test , but thats about it .

I think tactile is the way to start , want someone to find there base , start by having them push a wall and think about what they feel etc .

grounded while moving is the real trick

first we broke the kata into poses , now we break the poses ino statues and test them .

It might be a good way to beat on people though perhaps .

All stance work is mainly about power--making it and using someone else's.. You learn to use the 'stance' moving or not.

The grounded vs moving/bouncing, on the balls of the feet, etc, is a sign of the 'classical disconnect' where a Western mode of thinking is being applied to an Eastern form that is out of focus.

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Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit

Jim,
Please explain a little bit your understanding of how to move quickly and explosively without bouncing on the balls of your feet so that 2Green can get a sense of why you feel his description of movement is somehow a "disconnect."

Thanks,
Dana

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I made no comment about his description being a disconnect, rather the disconnect is seen in the teaching method often used in TMAs and reflected in his comment:



This is an extremely common phenomena in TMA instruction. Students are guided through a clearly 'traditional' set of exercises involving all sorts of things, kata, drilling using the classical tools, etc, taking up most of the class time.. Then they get to the sparring and it all (or most of it) goes right out the window.. THIS is the disconnect.. Training X but then switching to Y when you go into actual application is how the disconnect manifests...

The ability to move and explode is based on alignment of the joins and loading of the springs, or stretching of the muscles, something already in the stance, the base, the horse. A sprinter does not need to bounce to explode. His rear foot is firmly planted on a rest which he will push off of when he does EXPLODE into motion..

The ground connection is critical if you are about managing power, yours and his, at any given moment. Connected fighting methods rely on a constant ground connection to do that in an instant, you can't re-establish a ground connection suddenly without warning, it must be there already--ready to tap into instantly. On the other hand if you don't use a connected, energy issuing fighting method it may not matter.

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Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit

Well said. I think this is the difference between being flat-footed and looking flat-footed.

When I am "planted" in my sanchin, my heels are not planted. Most of my weight is well forward of my heels and i use the heels, as needed, for structure.

Sanchin is, for lack of a better term, an athletic stance for me, meaning that it is already "loaded" for explosion.

To ask students to "bounce" is done, in my experience, to help a student who is too often flat-footed learn to use their footwork in a more plyometric way. But the goal is not to be bouncy so like all corrective tools, once the student develops the ability to move in a plyometric way, the bouncing disappears in favor of what appears to be flat-footed footwork but is simply a smoother loading and unloading of each leg.

In my own experience, I can make a "rooted" sanchin by shifting more weight into the heels but it becomes very difficult to move from that stance. So that kind of sanchin stance is, for me, too rooted for fighting purposes. The more I keep my feet relaxed and let the alignment of sanchin drop my weight into my feet, the more I feel additional pressure at Kidney 1 or just around the ball of the foot and less pressure for my heels. Both are touching the ground but the K1 area is pressing more and the heel area is simply connecting.

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Dana,

Great post. Excellent way to describe rooting and loading. Two very important and different aspects of training.

Best regards,
Joe

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I see these really as part of the essential horse or base.. Loading, rooting, alignment and body connection all act as the power delivery system..

Most folks I see in their stance appear completely disconnected from the purpose of the stance.. They are not really connected to the ground, they "do" the stance as if it was separate from function, because they are 'supposed to' do the stance.. The stance should feel as though it is storing lots of power, it should make you feel heavy, make you feel powerful and make your arm movements feel more powerful, faster, even when NOT moving. Feel and explore the connection running from the feet, legs, hips through the back and into the elbow and arm.

If folks can't feel these things when in their stance then they are in a stance but the stance is not alive and active or useful.

Some drills folks can do to energize the base:

Toi Ma... (Moving Horse)

From Sanchin position: (Both the mover and the person being moved should also be using the 'stance' to make power) More than one stance can be used or not.

Have a partner push you from different angles, push forward on the chest, forward on the arms; sideways on the body, sideways on the arms, pull folks forward from the arms, neck, from the shoulders, from the back.. Diagonally, all angles can be explored.. Use plenty of power, enough to FORCE them to move.. Break their position and make them get it back. Back. forward, forward, back, sideways, pull, push, jerk, shove them all over the floor.. Move them around.. Teach them how to load the stance USING the power you give them.. Teach them how to use a 'broken stance' to load a new one...

Pull down their guards with great sudden force and show them how to recover their position WITHOUT resisting this force.. Press their guards over and up and down and show them how to recover position WITHOUT force..but also test their structure as might normally be done.. Make them 'wrong' so that they have to correct it in an alive and real time manner..

Partners can take turns..

Later the folks being moved can also actively move to help them adapt by facing, closing and...? You can get very creative with this too...

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Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit

May a newbie post?

I drop and close. Only way this newbie can describe it. Part mental, but it's a physical thing too. Wasn't sure if this thread was to tease out Sanchin, related to starting kata, entering into bunkai...or any other part of practice...but first thing is to 'drop'.

Hi Harlan,
Good seeing you here again!

When you write "drop" and "close" what do those terms mean to you? What are you dropping and what are you closing?

Closing, for example, is a term that can mean the folding of a joint, a contraction of the core/hara/dantien, or lessening the space between two opponents.

A few more details will help me better understand where you're coming from.

Thanks!
Dana

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