Uechi-Ryu.com

Discussion Area
It is currently Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:02 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 23, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 1509
Location: on the path.
Jim:
"Most folks I see in their stance appear completely disconnected from the purpose of the stance.. They are not really connected to the ground, they "do" the stance as if it was separate from function, because they are 'supposed to' do the stance."

I agree completely with this. I watch peoples' feet a lot when they're doing Kata or Bunkai or whatever, and quite often I see the complete loss of attention in the footing.
I alluded to this when I mentioned students lifting the standing heel when kicking, completely unaware, but that's only one small example.
And, it's by no means only NEW students!

I know you're referring to a lot more than just the footing, but this is where I look for it and see it a lot.

That solid "ground-up" thing is so important because without it so much power is sapped or given away. I think it's one of the "great secrets" in martial arts, yet so basic.

~N~

_________________
The music spoke to me. I felt compelled to answer.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 23, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 1509
Location: on the path.
And Jim: another observation totally spot-on:

"This is an extremely common phenomena in TMA instruction. Students are guided through a clearly 'traditional' set of exercises involving all sorts of things, kata, drilling using the classical tools, etc, taking up most of the class time.. Then they get to the sparring and it all (or most of it) goes right out the window.. THIS is the disconnect.. Training X but then switching to Y when you go into actual application is how the disconnect manifests... "

Man, this is SO major it could/ maybe should have a whole thread of its own!

I've observed many classes where it's like someone flipped a switch when it came to sparring, and suddenly it's "let's BOX!!""

My teacher, to his credit, has a great antidote for this: we don't spar in the traditional sense. We do "designated attacker/defender" scenarios where if you're the attacker you can use any technique at random, but the defender MUST use Uechi techniques.
As soon as the defender abandons Uechi defenses, or starts flailing as we say, the drill is stopped immediately, briefly critiqued and then continued.

The challenge is to "let yourself" respond in the trained manner, without second-guessing yourself. It's almost supernaturally creepy ( but in a good way!) when it starts to really happen.

It's a great way to get confidence in yourself and the techniques, and to discover that yes, they really CAN work! Surprise surprise!

~N~

_________________
The music spoke to me. I felt compelled to answer.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:05 pm 
Good drilling Neil , we do similar stuff with the NLD drill .

But I do think freefighting should be part of the mix up

as for the feet , I tend to agree there should be connect , A difference between movement and grounding , well it really should be the same thing , your weight should be through the centre of your feet , and you should be able to do both .

its not either or , its the ends of the spectrum of the same thing , better grounding gives you better push off/more movment etc etc

It took me along time to change from ball of the foot and bouncy fighting .

Art Rabesa mentions it in his new forum in his punching power thread

http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?t=19005

Quote:
Do you think of that dark unspoken area between kata movements as unimportant or just a position to pass through on your way to some more blocking, punching, or kicking? Snap out of it! How strong is a chain if all the parts that link it together are weak? I think I've made my point.
That same strength that you feel in the blocking, punching, or kicking part of the kata is the same power that you should feel passing through another series of movements. If you can do the power kata, then you should be able to incorporate what this power manual is trying to get you to do.


Quality posts with not a lot of feedback , but real understanding shown


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 23, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 1509
Location: on the path.
Stryke I agree about freefighting, but the whole point of the exercise IMO should be to train the defender to use their long-learned techniques in ( as close to) ACTUAL applications as possible: RATHER than abandoning them in the heat of the moment.

What I would expect to see is the attacker using "whatever" in the attacks, and the Uechi student using spontaneous, effective defenses from the style.
That's pretty well what we try to train when it comes to "sparring".

Of course the BIG PREMISE here is that Uechi can deal with all attacks...

And I confess that while we address anti-grappling techniques, I'm sure a good grappler could add many more pages to the Uechi book.

But hey, that's what the future is for -- more to look forward to learning...

~N~

_________________
The music spoke to me. I felt compelled to answer.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:20 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:21 am
Posts: 2407
Location: NYC
2Green wrote:
Stryke I agree about freefighting, but the whole point of the exercise IMO should be to train the defender to use their long-learned techniques in ( as close to) ACTUAL applications as possible: RATHER than abandoning them in the heat of the moment.

Thanks for the positive comments..

Of course the question here is why would this be problematic in freestyle vs scenario??

And it's also instructive to go out and play with other styles..

2Green wrote:
Of course the BIG PREMISE here is that Uechi can deal with all attacks...

Any system may well be able to deal with any attack--the question is can the person..

One of the biggies in CMA is a continuous attack.. That means that any attacking movement ALWAYS flows into another, and another, and another, etc.. In addition the attacking elements have changes and defensive components built into them. Not saying you are thinking defensive, BUT thinking attack and then looking at how the movements, can be applied in a way that is constant in pressure yet combines both defensive and offensive elements may be helpful.. The two basic checks for CMA are energy issuing and balance stealing--energy issuing means that you are applying some kind of physical pressure into the opponent while you attack and the balance stealing is a by product of same. A simple example is pressing/pulling the opponent with one hand/arm while hitting with the other.. This energy can be applied on a bridge, elbow, shoulder, core, etc,--it breaks his structure, and attacks his CG in general. Both hands, each with it's own task, and the body--all three can be used in the same instant--we say make three movements at once--then three more, and so on.

2Green wrote:
And I confess that while we address anti-grappling techniques, I'm sure a good grappler could add many more pages to the Uechi book.

That's why taking his balance or challenging it ASAP is critical, if you challenge the grappler's balance then you are forcing him to get it back before he can use his stuff..

_________________
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 23, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 1509
Location: on the path.
"Of course the question here is why would this be problematic in freestyle vs scenario?? "

The answer is in the "disconnect" you referred to earlier, Jim and certainly it is an important question.

I think the answer is multi-layered, but I suspect that the competitive mindset is at the root of the problem of learning to apply conditioned, essentially "un-instinctive" techniques.

Scenario is consentual learning, but "sparring" connotes competition.
So, when engaged in sparring, the student is thinking "who will win?", rather than "I'm pretending to be the BG so my partner can learn to deal."


I'm not condemning sparring, but I think it quickly morphs from consentual-learning mode to "competitive-mode", and then the "freestyle flailing" ensues.
When this happens, its value as a learning tool goes out the window.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Lately I've been preoccupied with evaluating the function of competition in society overall, including business, manners and road rage for example.
It certainly has its constructive place, but it can lead to all kinds of counter-productive effects as well.

The above may be just my current biased thinking, but I believe in it enough to offer it for consideration.

~N~

_________________
The music spoke to me. I felt compelled to answer.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 23, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 1509
Location: on the path.
And yet more, Jim:

I was very interested in your comments about the flow of attacking -- one technique following the other in a continuous chain.
If the defender follows his/her instincts under such attack, the result will be "duck and cover" from which no counter-attack is easily mounted, if at all.

Years ago I watched a fairly experienced student sent back-pedaling hopelessly under a simple flurry attack of punches by a committed but less-experienced student, proving this point.

The defender was unable to access the technique of breaking and entering the attack because he was busy "instinctively" saving his ass.

In a sparring scenario this would ( and did) once again invoke the "freestyle flail". In real life it would have spelled disaster for the defender.

Having a defense against an attempted "flurry attack" is VERY important, so important it should be codified into a drill, first by one attacker, and then at higher levels, multiple attackers.
Swarmings are getting as common as single assaults these days, and MA's need to be introduced to the military term "Task Saturation" and learn to train through it in our particular context.

Our own " Kanshiwa Bunkai" is a drill of three attackers on one defender, so this concept is not new, but I think it could use a shot in the arm for our modern reality. ( Our class still does it fairly regularly, building intensity.)

The tools are there for us to use, handed down from previous generations.

~N~

_________________
The music spoke to me. I felt compelled to answer.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:26 am 
Quote:
In a sparring scenario this would ( and did) once again invoke the "freestyle flail". In real life it would have spelled disaster for the defender.


If one cannot control the flail in a competitive training situation , then I`d suggest they have no chance in a real encounter .

this is simply why its so important to do scenario work , and pressure test competitively


you need all the steps .


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:52 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:21 am
Posts: 2407
Location: NYC
It might be helpful to look at why, under pressure the 'flail' becomes dominant.. Clearly if what the 'flailer' was using before was working or more effective in the fighter's mind he wouldn't resort to the flail... Perhaps folks need to look at--how to 'flail' more effectively.. ;)

IMO the 'flail' is the body saying, 'hey we have to attack continuously to rid ourself of the threat before us..' If you don't have a better way to express this need--then in some cases, this may trigger the flail.. The question is how and what tools are more effective, can be trained to flow into each other and then used to replace the 'primal flail'... So, what kind of attacking flow do you have or can you put together in your training? Remember: Each attacking movement, not only attacks, but helps to protect you--and make openings--or should..

_________________
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 11:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 478
Location: worcester, ma
thinking about Dana's first comments,
this is some of what i belive and what i have taught my students.

you dont start a fight standing in sanchin. a fight starts under many different situations. most times you are not ready for the confrontation. i find most people during major stress moments and during the first moments of a physical confrontation will allow their center of gravity to rise. sanchin teaches you to lower your center not raise it, and this should be done with out thinking about it but should happen naturally.

a true sanchin is not the "dachi" but the "kamai" meaning it is not just the physical positioning but the over all body feel. the feel of being grounded , the feel of the structural integrity of the arms and legs, the feel of being centered along with many others.
i can take anyone off the street and teach them the physical in about 5 minutes but not the internal workings.

under extreme stress the brain will lose all rational thought. fighting is primal brain not rational thought. during this kind of stress all learnt behavior and coordination will go out the window. only the things that have been trained to the point of being hard wired into our neuro net pathways will remain intact.
this is why we train sanchin. all actions under stress will be mulitplied by 10. if sanchin teaches us to stand with our feet under our shoulders it will keep us from having our feet miles apart. if it teaches us to keep our elbows one fist from our ribs it will keep us from extending our arms at full reach.
if you think of training more like a military soldier it can help to understand my point.
the drill SGT. will yell at the soldiers agian and agian
"YOU WILL HOLD YOUR WEAPON LIKE THIS !"
" YOU WILL HOLD YOUR WEAPON LIKE THIS !"
during combat the ones who train in this method were holding there weapons if not perfectly at least in some form of relation.
the others who did not train in drill could not seem to find theirs.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Hi all
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 8:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2004 7:03 am
Posts: 878
will allow their center of gravity to rise. sanchin teaches you to lower your center not raise it, and this should be done with out thinking about it but should happen naturally

I like what Hoshin said above:

In my view with all due respect I see this as kind of a non issue. I feel you'd move from sanchin just as you stand in sanchin. you wouldn't move forward leaning over and being high in the chest like westerners do. You'd move from the hara or center while keeping low and aligned as sanchin teaches us.

new people lean over forward and are high. People who study longer learn to stay low and rooted and centered as sanchin teaches us.

so to me it's move and stand the same way..the sanchin way.

I feel so many things can be over analyzed and you can become a victim of paralysis by analysis. I think when it comes to martial arts nothing beats what Confucius says below.

"I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand."
-- Confucius


Some things I feel can only be experienced and felt and understood by doing and that's really the only way.

_________________
Jeff


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hi all
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 9:42 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 1663
Location: england
Mills75 wrote:
will allow their center of gravity to rise. sanchin teaches you to lower your center not raise it, and this should be done with out thinking about it but should happen naturally

I like what Sochin said above:

In my view with all due respect I see this as kind of a non issue. I feel you'd move from sanchin just as you stand in sanchin. you wouldn't move forward leaning over and being high in the chest like westerners do. You'd move from the hara or center while keeping low and aligned as sanchin teaches us.

new people lean over forward and are high. People who study longer learn to stay low and rooted and centered as sanchin teaches us.

so to me it's move and stand the same way..the sanchin way.


Mostly on the thread its been sanchin or the horse posture ,were as it could have been any type of movement ,but the point is; we would have to initiate it ,and it was the start of the movement I was addressing ,we were not in sanchin as per the hour glass posture at all ? we had got only to a point in transitional movement ,to our hourglass posture ,that point was a mini horse posture [Heiko Dachi] via the transition from [Musubi Dachi ] and both postural changes contain fighting applications ,along with starting a movement ,and suppling our lowering of the Dantein just as you say Jeff .

Plus establishing rooting in the two transitional postures ,Musubi and Heiko respectively ,at the completion of Hekio dachi we would have pressurized the body with breath ,and flared the nostrils /eye's glaring etc, we would be in fighting mode also ,we would have undergone the transition from passive mode to active mode ,and we are not yet in sanchin dachi .

Now we can bring in the power thrusts ,this is were and some reasons why Kanbun sensei advocated so much time to this specific area of study .The power thrusts from the mini horse posture ,and not the sanchin dachi ,this is were the power was first activated From the Kanbun perspective of power development ,and a indepth knowledge of the two mentioned transitional changes to activate power ,the double thrusts are the most powerfull movements in sanchin ,the [form ] This is a specific reason why they are at the beginning of sanchin ,and not strategically placed elsewere in the powerfull sanchin kata or otherwise .

Mini horse [Hekio dachi] Three points on a line at a transitional point of departure of a explosive double thrust ; feet -knees - spearhands .

A note; all work done upon this mode of training is performed incorperating doubles in any motion ,powerfull ways to develop ,and again this is why Kanbun placed so much emphasis upon this ,but one could only really benefit as per What KANBUN wanted if you had the patience to carry it out ,and devote all training energy to this .

MAX.

_________________
max ainley


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 2:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2004 7:03 am
Posts: 878
I feel it all goes to show how much time and effort the founders put into the style of Uechi. Even Musubi dachi is brilliant cause with the feet positioned in this manner we are ready to go in any direction without being off balanced like we would be unbalanced standing with our feet together and facing forward.

Even starting off we are positioned in an athletic fashion ready for whatever comes our way from any direction it may come. Brilliant style from top to bottom and I love it!

Jeff

_________________
Jeff


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 8:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 1663
Location: england
Mills75 wrote:
I feel it all goes to show how much time and effort the founders put into the style of Uechi. Even Musubi dachi is brilliant cause with the feet positioned in this manner we are ready to go in any direction without being off balanced like we would be unbalanced standing with our feet together and facing forward.

Even starting off we are positioned in an athletic fashion ready for whatever comes our way from any direction it may come. Brilliant style from top to bottom and I love it!

Jeff



Lots of transitional postural material can be missed ,I know full well this happens ? for one I am a big culprit of this ,and has I said I spent six months solid on the opening of sanchin ,now coming from Wado-ryu at dan grade standard prior to this ,we had made some study of musubi-dachi in respect of for instance its jujitsu application's ,looking at sanchin some time later ,I could see fighting applications straight away ,back then to me ,this warranted all my investagation time there in . But at the[ Heiko Dachi ] point ,uechi -ryu 's structural alignment kicked in ,I knew this part could not be rushed ,instinctivley and emotionally I had to withhold the horse inside than wanted to run onwards into things ,with the blicker's on ,its really in Heiko Dachi were the blinkers start to come off ,[we open our eyes to glare ],but the inner horse rushes forewards and misses the transitions ,wanting to get to sanchin dachi ,in the short term this does not strengthen the initial purpose of the glare .

By holding our horses at the Heiko posture we control and strengthen the glare by fixing it ,same for the two nostrils with breath control ,as I said in last post we are working in a very powerfull way indeed ,everything is in doubles.

Another point of this methodolgy is; we are being given [time] to apprehend the transitions so far made in study .
A note on powerfull ,this relates to multi things such as we are gaining control of our inner workings in a powerfull way and we arn't just working on a powerfull double strike ,this give's us a touch of the all inclusive methodology at work ,alive and well .
max.

_________________
max ainley


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 9:23 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 1663
Location: england
Later on in a real fight I found the transitions would work for me ,this is how sanchin the full kata can be so adaptable ,and this is how I would fight direct from sanchin ,the fight a real one , brought out highlighted the transitions at that time at my level .

A explantion I some times give to my student's is if sanchin was a sheet of glass and it shattered on to the floor ,what parts would you be capable of picking up and using in a fight .

So the methodogy ,is always indicating ,pointing towards the transitions .

_________________
max ainley


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group