Should women practice martial arts?

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JimHawkins
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Post by JimHawkins »

Rick Wilson wrote: Jim this is not what I have said so clearly I have failed to make myself understood and can only apologise.

I posted that I did not have video capabilities at the moment but would hopefully soon. I prefer to post clips of myself.

You are not understanding the concepts I am posting, Jim and while I can accept I perhaps have not made them clear to you thankfully I neither feel nor hold any obligation to do so.
I'm responding to what I interpret from various posters.

I beleive we agree 99% of the time.

I am about converting to offense as I wrote in a single direct action.. Even when WCK moves offline for entry it's often only a few degrees off and still very direct.

Really in this situation no significant change in position is possible--we're in the kill zone.

In reality there are many variables that we are not addressing here--or that was not part of the question.. Also we each seem to be addressing different conditions here... As in timing and distance variations.

It was my understanding that in the example we must deal with the energy.. Stuffing it is about minimizing same not about force on force. There are times when the force is going to enter our space and must be dealt with. IMV we must deal with it AND counter in the same action. If the move doesn't we don't agree, if it does then we agree.

I just played with some MA workmates.. When standing in the kill zone there is no time for me to do anything other than get them asap. Pretty simple to me..

I am mainly saying that a smaller person must not delay in motion, energy or action--they must not delay to convert.. In my style and POV there are times to enter straight, conserve motion and minimize time to conversion--note that enter can mean different things but it means becoming offensive in some way instantly..

I read some stuff here as saying that smaller folks must wait longer to convert and I disagree with this.

Also going in correctly in a linear fashion does not read death for smaller folks, it's about all the factors, distance, timing, use of energy and position....
Last edited by JimHawkins on Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

The discussion here is not about ‘some delay’ ….I don’t believe in ‘delay’ ….it is the manner of the immediate counter we are talking about.

The sudden entry and ‘shutdown’ in a straight line works fine…but what works better is the spiral entry and pivot at the same time. Absorption and redirection.

Defensive methods vary. Straight entry is only one method.

You can enter, brick up the center, create structure straight in or using the ‘spiral method’ that will accomplish the same as straight entry in a safer manner.
The kick is coming, you can't avoid it..

You take offensive action is the only correct answer for anyone IMO.
Taking immediate offensive action is something I have been arguing for years on these pages. There are a number of ways to this ‘action’ that has to be considered.

We must be careful in not trying to convince a small weaker woman to fall into the embrace of the bear.


You don’t move straight into a grizzly bear…you try to ‘spin away from touch’ so you can shoot him.

Scott Sonnon has a tape out on absorption…it is an eye opener.

Uechi Ryu is a system that teaches, among other concepts, straight entry with structure, while at the same time creating absorption and redirection. The spiral entry creates more structure and more power.

It is comparable to a projectile launched from a grooved barrel[the rifle] as opposed form a smooth bore.

Most people, as well, have no clue of how this type of issuing force and energy is accomplished.
FACT: More often than not there won't be any time to move at all.. An inch perhaps..

You cannot make two motions here there is not time.. You must move into the target (center) to challenge--that means to issue FORCE..

All the compound this first then that, and the other thing ain't going to happen here. It's about a sudden attack and a sudden (immediate) counter that interrupts this attack...
FACT: this can be done very effectively by spiraling force that intercepts, absorbs and redirects.

Kanbun’s drills, involved much of the Irimi and taikawashi concept, discussed earlier on my forum, and in line with the “Mai_ Ai” concept of Shoshin NAGAMINE.

Essentially__ irimi is attacking the opponent’s attack more directly and taikawashi is an approach you take
when you are “spinning and entering” _
Van
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Shana Moore
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Attempting to summarize the discussion to date

Post by Shana Moore »

I hope there are several women and men, not just Vicki and I, paying attention to this conversation and considering how to apply it to our own training.

That said, the opposing ideas are a great way for all individuals to practice variations in drills/practice/class so they will know what options work best for them in different scenarios and have some repetitive training in thier best options BEFORE it's required. The main thing I'm getting from all of your comments is that we are dealing with a very short time period, so you don't have time to sort out options then....you need to train and have a foundation already set now.

In the end, this is not about whether people "get it or not", or which philosophy/method is the best, because it always comes down to what works for the individual. As has been stated, different people have different strengths and abilities, and many of those will change over time with training and understanding. So, gentlemen, thanks for this lively discussion.

Now, let me see, if as a relative newbie, I'm getting the gist of these discussions or missing vital points:

Rick,
Your are coming at this from a progressive training standpoint, with the ultimate goal to be a response that simultaneously absorbs some of the force as you close and attack, with the end goal of not getting hurt. You seem to lean toward deflection and small circles and angles of closure, in most but not all cases. Is this correct?
So first you teach how to absorb the power of the kick and not get hurt.

Then you teach how to close and absorb and not get hurt.

Then you teach how to absorb and close and attack and not get hurt.
Jim,
You seem to be approaching this from an immediate reaction standpoint and with the training part already behind you. So you are focusing on getting inside and disrupting the full force of a blow before it can gain it's hottest or strongeset point. You are also focusing on minimal movements (less than an inch) and the fraction of time the conflict will actually entail.

You are also focusing on a final solution that both converts the attackers energy and attacks him in an almost simultaneous manner, because you are coming from the standpoint that there is really a limited opportunity to turn this to the smaller defender's advantage.

I think you are focusing more on straight line attacks because of minimal movement entailed, but realizing that the conversion of the energy of the attack may require spinning or movement as part of the total movement (that last part may be an incorrect assumption on my part, so please clarify). The main part/focus, though, is taking early control of the center line and knowing when to move off of it or move your opponent off of it. Is that close?
a smaller person must not delay in motion, energy or action--they must not delay to convert
Van,
You are also more focused on the actual moment of conflict than the training leading up to it, but you are clearly a fan of the spiral entry and pivot as ways to deflect an attack. You are also talking absorption and redirection as a necessary part of defending against the attack, and if I'm understanding your recent post, you are not talking about stepping back out of the attack, but reacting immediately and choosing to move in angles more than directly into an attack. It seems like you are talking about more dynamic movement, but again that could be a misunderstanding on my part. Please clarify if I'm misunderstanding.
The sudden entry and ‘shutdown’ in a straight line works fine…but what works better is the spiral entry and pivot at the same time. Absorption and redirection.

Defensive methods vary. Straight entry is only one method.
SO....how close or far am I to what you intended to convey, gentlemen? :oops: :)
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JimHawkins
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Re: Attempting to summarize the discussion to date

Post by JimHawkins »

Shana Moore wrote: Jim,
You seem to be approaching this from an immediate reaction standpoint and with the training part already behind you. So you are focusing on getting inside and disrupting the full force of a blow before it can gain it's hottest or strongest point.
Correct. Some of the elements in consideration are:

1. Managing the incoming force.

2. Aligning the body to project power and receive power.

3. Projecting a force that cuts off his attack with yours before his fully develops.
Shana Moore wrote: You are also focusing on minimal movements (less than an inch) and the fraction of time the conflict will actually entail.
According to the example as I understand it; Vicky was addressing dealing with the force in a drill where the point of the drill was managing force, eg 'blocking it'.. This was the basis for the question.. So in my book other options like moving out of range of the kick was not an option here.

In the kill zone there is no time to do any complex or compound movements.. But it depends on how you want to convert, in a single action or using say two actions.. The ideal is to combine the hard and soft into one action IMO. Offense and defense blur into that single counter action. Therefore each part of the conversion happens together, part to deal with the force and part to challenge/control.
Shana Moore wrote: You are also focusing on a final solution that both converts the attackers energy and attacks him in an almost simultaneous manner..
Exactly, in the same movement time or action.
Shana Moore wrote: because you are coming from the standpoint that there is really a limited opportunity to turn this to the smaller defender's advantage.
Because the more time to offense the more time for the opponent to adapt.

Again, I did not take this topic to include all these other issues.. However, I feel that any counter that does not immediately, as we say, issue energy, gives the opponent time to further develop his attack.

The reality is not many folks are going to get attacked by a round kick in the street. But when one is attacked by a round kick it will be fast, you won't know about it until it's halfway to impact.. There may be fakes and feints, and there will be more coming a half beat later. The person firing off the round kick (or any other attack) will by following up with more kicks or strikes right behind it non stop.. The longer you take to convert the harder it will become to do so.

This is why by the second action time the smaller defender's counter attack should already be well developed--if it isn't the opponent's will be.

The primary focus for me is always to enter, to close range, to develop the close range attack. This may or may not be the primary goal of others.
Shana Moore wrote: I think you are focusing more on straight line attacks because of minimal movement entailed, but realizing that the conversion of the energy of the attack may require spinning or movement as part of the total movement (that last part may be an incorrect assumption on my part, so please clarify).
It's killing as many birds as you can in a single action--that's what WCK is all about.. Any delay, even a small one is not what I am looking for..

Most of the actions we do in WCK involves using very small angles.. But not always.. But even when we use angles for entry (different from inside work) we only use tiny angles because of the time factor--as in there is no time to make large motions...

In cases where they open up the center by using a wide circular attack we can use a direct counter to fill that space..

The best instant counter IMO, (not what this thread was about) is to align, issue energy and counter attack in one single half beat--bang.. Not that you stop there but your counter should contain all the needed parts to fully convert.
Shana Moore wrote: The main part/focus, though, is taking early control of the center line and knowing when to move off of it or move your opponent off of it. Is that close?
We don't move off the centerline, we move the centerline, by angling or not. If he goes circular he has opened the line..

The reality in real fighting is that you won't know what the person is going to do until it's coming at you.. The correct goal regardless of what is going to happen is to focus on your attack.. So, when you are dealing with any kind of attack your purpose must be to use whatever the opponent does to facilitate your attack. Any action or inaction by the opponent becomes part of your attack.

In real fighting or in a surprise attack there is never much time to do more than the most simple actions--like attack. The question is only how to best do that..
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robb buckland
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THE HARD KICKER

Post by robb buckland »

"The key is not to deal with a hard incoming kick, but to know how to neutralize it in the first place." :D

Force Management
Hands in tight, dont block out,.Keep your hands close to your body.Left arm next to your heart ,right arm sheilds your liver.Both arms sheilding the body against the kick allowing you to strike with power ."Sit "on the block as it leaves a smaller target area for the attacker.

Bill Wallace
".....Last time I checked this thread was not about tournament fighting techniques..." :lol:
.............................Superfoot was the undefeated World Middleweight Kickboxing Champion :D , Ive trained with him 3 or 4 times a year for the last 10 years at no time have we never trained in tournament fighting 8O ..its always been full contact. Once in 1997 Bill and I did a photo shoot for Karate International Magazine the main premise of which was grappling 8O -the video Van posted is decieving ...Bill can/will knock you out with either hand and definitely any kick !!!! :wink:
Last edited by robb buckland on Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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JimHawkins
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Re: THE HARD KICKER

Post by JimHawkins »

robb buckland wrote: Hands in tight, dont block out,.Keep your hands close to your body.

Bill Wallace
Great, but Bill apparently doesn't know jack about the 'advanced' (means extended) structural tools of Chinese Martial Arts. Sounds like my first "karate" lesson..

Espousing such a thing for a CMA shows a complete lack of understanding of how the structure in these arts was intended to be used.

If you followed such advice not only would the structure be removed as the shapes would be gone, there would be no defensive or offensive capability left in them. :roll:

Like taking the head off a SPEAR and using the shaft held against the body for protection.

Not exactly what Blauer is doing.. (A form of advanced and energized structure.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--74CtXS6Y4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr7bojwFacA

Tell him to keep his arms in and do what he does...
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JimHawkins
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Re: THE HARD KICKER

Post by JimHawkins »

robb buckland wrote: ".....Last time I checked this thread was not about tournament fighting techniques..." :lol:
.............................Superfoot was the undefeated World Middleweight Kickboxing Champion :D , Ive trained with him 3 or 4 times a year for the last 10 years at no time have we never trained in tournament fighting 8O ..its always been full contact.
Completely misses the point..

This thread did not start out about SPORT FIGHTNG..

It was about how to best deal with/manage a 'surprise' round kick coming at you in a drill with fixed parameters. :lol: :roll:
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My mistake

Post by robb buckland »

You have my humble appollogies
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Post by JimHawkins »

No apology necessary.. 8)
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

This should help to understand.

In Italy, Florence was the very heart of the Renaissance as for art and culture; Bologna was the same as for martial arts, particularly for swords-fighting arts.

A great Maestro was Achille Marozzo. What is known about him is that he was trained by a very famous master, Guido Antonio de Luca, who is said to have trained more warriors than those who got out of the Trojan horse!, among them Captain Giovanni dalle Bande Nere.(Joanni de Medici)

Reaction. Reaction is the skill of being able to take advantage of observed motions in your opponent. It involves several sub-components that you should train: recognition, conditioning, and decision-making.

Recognition. In order to react properly, you need to be able to recognize what the opponent is going to do.

You must train to recognize the enemy’s body language leading to a roundhouse kick for example.

Recognition allows you to discern a punch from a kick, a middle punch from a high punch, a jab from a lunge, and aggressiveness from defensiveness.

The ability to recognize and react to your opponent’s movements is essential in the more advanced tactical skill of reversal, where you will learn to go from a losing position to a winning position.

Europe has developed the technology of using the sword way past the achievements of both the Japanese and Chinese. Becoming a good fencer entails years of one-on-one continuous reactive drilling and constant sparring.

German and Italian fencers in Japan involved in exhibitions against kendo literally wipe the floor the Japanese fencers at will.

And the Japanese are miles above the Chinese in swordplay.

Maestro Marozzo
For the sake of efficiency, you want to evade the projection while simultaneously moving in to counterattack. (This is another instance of yielding with forward pressure. Forward pressure, i.e., pressure toward your opponent's center, need not be on a straight line; it can be circuitous, to avoid collision with oncoming force.)

This requires knowledge of line and angle. You want not only to vacate the line of projection, but to position yourself so you can attack your opponent on a weak angle.

There is an area of overlap between yielding, sticking, and projection which is known as "ceding."

This refers to unleashing power in a manner that seeks the lowest level of resistance, flowing around obstructions. We learned how effective and useful it could be in any swordplay or hand weapon. We also learned the important use of traversing and passing instead of straight-line fighting.
Don’t train in ways that, being weaker than the enemy, you follow a beeline straight into the bear’s clutches.

Going to the center line is good but a practitioner well trained straight line and spiral line will have the advantage every time by developing sweep away techniques.
Van
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

I am a big fan of Bill Wallace...when I used to play at sparring I shamelessly copied him :oops: . and I know that he is skilled at Judo and wrestling, cool guy 8)
as to a roundhouse kick .I am really surprised that nobody has talked about how to detect one before it's launched, really that is all to do with the placement of the feet.
But high roundhouse kicks really have no place in a streetfight,.......same as grappling...So you can get as good as you want .but it will serve you no purpose :cry: ......and as an ex kicker, I know to always fear the elbow, only really works for high kicks though..low kicks are called "shadowless kicks" in CMA .........because they are not easily detectable...if you want to kick then they are the best...in Uechi and in Wing-Chun.....actually Uechi has the edge here :wink:
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

But high roundhouse kicks really have no place in a streetfight

They certainly do... but it depends on who is doing the kicking…and what training they have received.

You can ‘speed fire’ a low roundhouse with your left leg to the opponent’s inside left leg…[an invisible kick done with snap/our favorite at the dojo] …see the clip…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ctRyu9V7N0

and as he buckles you follow up with a high roundhouse to his nicely positioned head for a KO.

This is how one of my students broke the jaw of a punk on the way out of a pub one evening.

It is a high percentage KO strike when done right.

Another way we would work it in…

Calls for a whipping low side kick to the opponent’s legs… then with the same leg shoot up a high roundhouse into the face.

The opponent does not see the ‘invisible’ low cutting blade kick but will double up as he gets hit…making the roundhouse KO an easy shot.

This the way Joe Pomfret knocked out an opponent.
Van
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Van Canna
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Here is another nasty combo

Post by Van Canna »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVWIoqRMAmg&feature=user

The street roundhouse liver shot...one from personal experience...works like a charm.
Van
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-_x0UPhalE&NR=1

This one we practice against the bag held to the floor by two students as another fires this kick which they refer to as the 'torpedo' _

We actually have to protect the people holding the bag...
Van
Rick Wilson

Post by Rick Wilson »

Shana -- you've got it!
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