Should women practice martial arts?

[Shana Moore]

Thanks Rick for the full name, I'll look into his books and add to my ever expanding Uechi reading list!

Also, folks, thanks for the interesting exchange of ideas! I like the opposing, yet thoughtfully presented, concepts offered for all to try and choose what works for them!

[Shana Moore]

In researching David Elkins on our forum, I found this interesting post from 2000. I do not know if he still espouses this viewpoint, so I will simply post it as a comment from that point in time and to add to the interesting discussion currently being held:

Against stronger opponents, I avoid exactly that... "muscle to muscle." Can't win playing to the opponent's strong point and my weakness.

Instead I focus on my attributes. One is speed. The others are timing, movement/angling. One can improve speed somewhat by learning to RELAX. Timing and angling comes from doing drills with a partner.

Because I would rather avoid power to power I prefer angling/parrying to straight up blocking/clashing. With angling/parrying and correct timing, I can catch bigger guys coming in. This nullifies their reach and increases my power because they are running into my strike. I have dropped bigger guys with proper angling and timing on strikes

this is from a thread titled "muscle to muscle" http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?p=25338

[Rick Wilson]

As you say Jim we simply disagree.

I see small circles changing a lot of things – you do not.

I see using angles – you changed.

I see absorption combining with closing, perhaps you do or don’t, not sure if this was covered so best not to assume.

I have worked with kickers who generate power that destroys a structure trying to overwhelm them.

Again not sure who you have worked with so it is inappropriate to comment. I just know the type of power kickers I have worked with.

We perhaps disagree based on different training and different training experiences. "Perhaps."

Without a dojo floor there really is nothing much more to say other than we have differences and that is neither an issue or a concern it is just a disagreement.

“I also don't see most round kicks from 99% of folks as atomic non stoppers at all”

In this we agree 100%, Jim; however, evidently where we disagree is that I prefer to train for that 1% that is and therefore I am ready for the 99% that is not.

I just know I train, or rather attempt to train, for that 1% rather than the 99%


All the best in training...........

[JimHawkins]

To correct my position:

I see small circles changing a lot of things – you do not.

Actually, I do see all kinds of small circles changing all kinds of things. But probably not when trying to move a large mass away from a much faster lighter mass going in the same direction.

I see using angles – you changed.

Using very small angles is part of natural movement.. In fact normal WCK methods is to always keep moving behind them with each beat... However attempting to angle away in the same path a bullet is going I see as wasteful or simply not practical--but who knows I may change again.

I also see times for more exacting linear movement.

I think you may have changed on some things too..

I see absorption combining with closing, perhaps you do or don’t, not sure if this was covered so best not to assume.

Absorption is a fact of contact. Closing/major distances changes can't always happen..

Structure absorbs, redirects and energizes..

I would be interested to see alternate use of structure.

I have worked with kickers who generate power that destroys a structure trying to overwhelm them.

I've worked with folks (old Chinatown school) who could kick good (visiting) kickers off their support leg in mid kick, or whack the incoming kick with a leg attack and a loud cracking sound..

Now here you might see a slight angle off away, or not, but it's because you are going to fire your own bullet not enter or absorb (this thread's problem).. IMO this is the real Southern method of dealing with kicks--intercepting with the legs.

[Rick Wilson]

Change is a good thing – no criticism was intended.

[Bill Glasheen]

In researching David Elkins on our forum, I found this interesting post from 2000.

I had a chance to work with David Elkins many years back. He was a sponge. He learned Fuzhou Suparinpei from me, and we had lots of interesting discussions about training.

He's a very nice guy, and a very intense guy. Whatever he does, he goes into it with both feet.

I found his discussion about power on power very interesting, as he was in a bit of a turning point mode when I started working with him. At the time he looked like Jesse "the bod" Ventura. He was aging, and his body was beginning to betray him. He needed some redirection.

I worked with him a lot on loosening up his stiff, robot approach to Uechi karate. The Suparinpei is very good at that. It isn't what you do with that; it's how you do it. You can't be doing one isolated ippon after another in a 3-minute form and live to talk about it.

His transitioning to some circular training methods in the weight room has also helped.

We all evolve; it's part of the cycle of life. The goal is to make the best of what you have when you have it. Your martial arts has to match your physical and psychological makeup.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Shutting down the enemy’s ‘launching platform’ is generally the best way to survive a violent encounter.

Questions are: But how to do it effectively_ and who’s to do it?


Rick

I have worked with kickers who generate power that destroys a structure trying to overwhelm them.

Again not sure who you have worked with so it is inappropriate to comment. I just know the type of power kickers I have worked with.

I agree with this because of my tournament experience of the past against some of the best kickers in the business…TKD fighters from the Henry Cho school in NY.

They would ‘sucker’ you …going in straight …and slam you down with circular kicks emerging from your blind sides impacting to the back of your head for a sure KO.

The speed and power of those kickers was awesome. And they knew just how to ‘anticipate’ your straight entry …sealing your doom.

Our best tactic we worked on was to learn to ‘anticipate their anticipation’ … going in and around them in a ‘spiral’ _

If you haven’t come up against intelligent power kickers, such as those above or graduates of Bill Wallace…you are in for a serious shock.



Rick

I do not advise smaller people to move into the incoming force of a kick thrown by a person who can truly throw a mass kick.

I prefer they absorb and move with the force.

I really prefer with training they close and absorb (which involves entering but at the same time moving away from the force in a small circle because of the closing) while attacking.

Closing and absorbing does not challenge the force which is what is gets smaller people hurt.

I agree.

Here is one example of destroying structure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwY-5WcE924

[robb buckland]

Youve gotta love Wallace !!!!
Jim Witherell has schooled me with a few of those "Wallace Specials"...

....."Closing and absorbing does not challenge the force which is what gets smaller people hurt...." .............
It has always been benifital to have "plenty of real estate" in the fight game.

[Van Canna]

True Robb...Jim's kicks are like invisible 'rifle shots'...I pity the fool who would want to try him out with any technique concept...They'll go out _ then wake up thinking they'd had some kind of seizure

[JimHawkins]

Last time I checked this thread was not about tournament fighting techniques...

It was about absorbing, managing the force..

A drill Vicki was working to do just this.

It was about not being able to avoid the kick.

It was about being slower than the opponent.

It was about managing the force..

Sure if you can avoid it fine.. Best to let it pass and move behind them if you want to avoid it....

However one cannot move the body faster than the kick while staying in the path of the kick--simple physics...

We know that in reality 99.9% of the time there is very little in the way of time to do anything when suddenly under attack--in the kill zone.. Getting the arms up is what happens first, fastest.. It's about very small changes.. Even most footwork shown in classical system will be for another time, a time with more time as we manage distance--as in the sport fight.

Is it a slow powerful kick or something much worse? If the latter you're going to go where?

The superior way to shut it down is to apply energy and structure sooner not later.

The most superior methods IMO are of the southern styles which will use leg attacks to attack the weapon and the center--longest weapon to nearest target..

This thread was about absorbing or dealing--managing the incoming force.. No one is saying go directly into the force, rather I'm saying: Take his position, take his space and his center.. SPEAR anyone?

Advanced *correct* structure, energized by the body and very small changes in position--is how you do that.

No option to not to deal with the force here.. Let's see other options or better options for doing that.

[Van Canna]

Robb

....."Closing and absorbing does not challenge the force which is what gets smaller people hurt...." .............
It has always been benifital to have "plenty of real estate" in the fight game.

I agree_ this is what Rick has been trying to point out.

I also agree that taking the attacker’s position, his space and his center is the best defense…but not for a small woman against a bigger stronger man. She will never be able to steal ‘his real estate’ as Robb points out.

Attempting to do so by a small weaker woman, against a big strong man will seal her doom.




She will be swatted down like a fly. Her very best option is to remain in motion so as to absorb redirect and evade. To wit…

Rick

I prefer they absorb and move with the force.

I really prefer with training they close and absorb (which involves entering but at the same time moving away from the force in a small circle because of the closing) while attacking.

This is the key and it can be done if one knows how.

Here is something from Scott Sonnon that puts it into perspective

The next segment is on shock absorption. This is the ability to acclimate to impact. A hit or a blow, Scott explains, will not necessarily end the fight. Don't fight, Scott urges – move.

He goes on to elaborate on the concept while providing demonstrations with his training partners. The "climate of combat," he explains, is impact.

We must train our bodies to become accustomed to that climate. He shows the viewer how to move in concert with an attack to let the force of the attack flow into and over you as you continue to move with it.

By absorbing blows, you avoid fighting force with force so you can address the threat.

The next segment details the "three methods of creating a plane." A plane is a buffer parallel to the trajectory of an attack.

The three methods involve using one, two, and three joints respectively.

Scott demonstrates, using the arms and legs, how to create planes with the body to deflect and absorb an attack while moving with it.

(For example, using your arm to deflect a kick while drawing it toward you to facilitate a takedown is the creation of a plane.)

This is scientific terminology and a refreshing physics (and physiology) -based approach applied to concepts that will be immediately familiar to martial artists and grapplers

.

[Rick Wilson]

Van and Robb I agree – of course.

And I saw this thread about a small woman (person) trying to learn how to deal with a much larger and more powerful kicker when all they are usually show is how to challenge the kick.

Not in any way saying my way is the only way but I firmly believe in a progressive teaching structure and shutting down a kick requires better timing that the kicker (anticipating the anticipation as Van pointed out) so it is not where I prefer to start.

So first you teach how to absorb the power of the kick and not get hurt.

Then you teach how to close and absorb and not get hurt.

Then you teach how to absorb and close and attack and not get hurt.

I am a good size guy and we good sized guys usually love the straight up the middle and shut them down approach which can get a lot of smaller people hurt until they learn the subtleties of absorption, redirection and angles.

But even as larger men we need to respect this and prepare for that monster so when we become the much smaller person we are not shocked by the actual lack of ability that was hidden by size and strength.

How many UFC guys are looking at Brock Lesner (sp?) and thinking “holy SH……”

(I know this isn’t a UFC thread but like Van I was using another venue to illustrate my point. )

Again this folks is just my approach and it seems to work fine, each to their own.

I am a 205 pound guy in pretty darn good shape (now) so as I said there is always a risk that I will use strength to compensate and therefore I remain on guard to have my strength applied appropriate against weakness not just strength I can over power.

I am not saying anyone posted that should be done -- this is just my post.

Some feel conditioning is a bad thing to do and if over done it can be; however, what some fail to understand is that within the “take the strike” conditioning should be an entire study of absorbing the force and not taking it.

Once this is learn then you can – without warning – absorb a strike and strategically position as you strike. Again it is a progressive thing. (Never any guarantees but a fighting chance.)

Right now once of the things we focus on is kicking from the clinch and it can be surprising how much you will have to absorb with some of the unseen kicks.

[Van Canna]

I

am a good size guy and we good sized guys usually love the straight up the middle and shut them down approach which can get a lot of smaller people hurt until they learn the subtleties of absorption, redirection and angles.

And this is where Uechi Ryu really shines...for people who can understand it...that is.

It gets pretty tiring to have to read over and over that 'spiraling' and 'conditioning' are useless in combat.

When we need to enter straight, Uechi gives us that option in the kata...but non believers don't see it...and that's okay...because they don't know it.

And most Uechi practitioners are well conditioned from day one of their practice in unique ways.

Not many of the 'dissenters' are likely to volunteer for some 'leg banging' competition.

You might want to run such a contest, Rick...and invite all the nay sayers...

[JimHawkins]

"Closing and absorbing does not challenge the force which is what gets smaller people hurt...." .............
It has always been benifital to have "plenty of real estate" in the fight game.

This isn't addressing what I am talking about since: Closing does challenge the force when energy is used to energize structure (and the opponent) so it's not just absorbing, it's issuing a challenging force--something most have little clue of how to do..

If you delay issuing the counter force you are eating his weapon and/or absorbing--again not what was suggested...

That's why it's even more critical for smaller folks. All this chatter is going to reinforce their thinking that they have to move away and stay in range or just away.

THIS is what prevents instant counter force and get's them killed as they are setup for the finish. These precious few nanoseconds must be used to convert to offense PERIOD.

Small folks need to do this better than anyone--they must intercept immediately. To do otherwise, get away, disengage, first, is the kind of thinking that we all used to challenge here.

Well I still know this is the case.. Let's see someone moving away and shutting them down in the same beat--can't be done when the real attack comes.

You want to wait another beat, absorb from outside, get bumped around and circle, fine, that's a totally different and longer method that I ain't down with..

I also agree that taking the attacker’s position, his space and his center is the best defense…but not for a small woman against a bigger stronger man. She will never be able to steal ‘his real estate’ as Robb points out.

If the concept is sound it's sound.. If there was a better way to counter no one would use the other way--especially folks like Blauer. Does he teach different methods to small woman officers? Nope.

For the tenth time: Moving any substantial amount is not possible in this case.

FACT:
Arriving a few degrees past the mid point means it's hotter not cooler--again basic physics..

Filling space a few degrees BEFORE the midpoint means it's cooler. The 'advanced' structure takes up more space, more time, more power sooner. It also means you are aligned and issuing body power sooner.

FACT: More often than not there won't be any time to move at all.. An inch perhaps..

You cannot make two motions here there is not time.. You must move into the target (center) to challenge--that means to issue FORCE..

All the compound this first then that, and the other thing ain't going to happen here. It's about a sudden attack and a sudden (immediate) counter that interrupts this attack..

You want to argue for some delay.. Fine by me.. I disagree.

The kick is coming, you can't avoid it..

You take offensive action is the only correct answer for anyone IMO. Anything else is to argue for a delay...

Attempting to do so by a small weaker woman, against a big strong man will seal her doom.

If there was a safer way than shutting them down (directly) it would be in something like SPEAR.. You have to "move in" to shut it down immediately smaller or not..

The trap is not moving into the eye of the storm, fail to do that and you are asking for it--it's a timing thing, as in no time for games. Any delay will allow their weapon more power and allows the opponent more time to adapt..

It's a fallacy in most cases, like the old, simply step out of the way BS.. No time in most real life cases and not what this thread was about..

You go with the force which wants to knock you aside and it will, and your chance to issue counter force to challenge will have come and gone.

I have no doubt in my mind using these concepts and tools correctly someone like Dana/Vicki could deal with any round kick from anyone here and if done well, could drop them like a hot potato with their body power.

I posted three clips...on this matter.

Still waiting to see ANY counter examples......

I'd just love to hear Blauer on this one......wouldn't you?

[Rick Wilson]

“That's why it's even more critical for smaller folks. All this chatter is going to reinforce their thinking that they have to move away and stay in range or just away. THIS is what prevents instant counter force and get's them killed as they are setup for the finish. These precious few nanoseconds must be used to convert to offense PERIOD.

Small folks need to do this better than anyone--they must intercept immediately. To do otherwise, get away, disengage, first, is the kind of thinking that we all used to challenge here.”


Jim this is not what I have said so clearly I have failed to make myself understood and can only apologise.

I posted that I did not have video capabilities at the moment but would hopefully soon. I prefer to post clips of myself.

You are not understanding the concepts I am posting, Jim and while I can accept I perhaps have not made them clear to you thankfully I neither feel nor hold any obligation to do so.

Vickie, Shana if you have any questions on what I have posted please ask.