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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:04 am 
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Don’t train in ways that, being weaker than the enemy, you follow a beeline straight into the bear’s clutches.

Going to the center line is good but a practitioner well trained straight line and spiral line will have the advantage every time by developing sweep away techniques.


Attacking for the WCK method doesn't mean getting into anyone's clutches, it mean getting them in ours.. :twisted:

Using WCK concepts means we cannot afford to be afraid to go straight in--there may be no other choice. Once at close range we are where we want to be.

From this POV one should be afraid to NOT be direct, or to loose facing, or to loose control of the line, or to loose the offensive edge, or to use force on force, or to resist instead of release etc, but not afraid to go in--straight or not--it's what WE do...

Got another method? Good on you..!

More often because of the very short time we have to attack we will be moving the line AFTER entry. That is moving around the opponent once close to him.. Close range is our comfort zone because 80%-90% of the training is in this range. The use of energy is much like a high pressure stream of water. We need to fire that energy into the center continuously and do so at close range.. If you can't hack it right in their face don't use these concepts.. It's the safest place to be when your real friend is your continuous inside training and attack. Delay or interruption is what we avoid not engagement..

I beleive that in reality there is often no time to do anything but attack..

Most folks have no understanding of the methods in play, only the superficial elements. We attack center mass of the opponent--we are not interested in "openings" we are not concerned with resistance, we seek it.. We are most interested in directness and contact..

The reality as I see in real fighting is that moving around the opponent and taking his flank is much easier said than done.. A good fighter will track you and adjust.. He is interested in bashing your head in so he's keeping his eye on that. I am not saying this is what folks are saying here or not. However, some folks in some arts make it out like you can just step aside the attack and take his side or back.. Doesn't work that way against decent fighters--they will adapt as you move.. Refacing, or maintaining facing on the opponent, is actually very high on our attribute list, you can't do the speed, power and action amplification without both hands working as one.

To me and based on my experience and training I see any extra time--where extra means time I can avoid using--is time that must be filled with attack, wasted time is time lost.

A direct line of attack is used in many systems including SPEAR and including with smaller folks, and while we often train flanking a direct attack, is sooner and sooner is often better unless that angle is needed.

Being sooner is big.

WCK IS a woman's art really, Bruce was a light weight and his teacher was a 90 pound police detective, at one time..

Those trained correctly will do it well. It's about sensitivity to energy, timing and position and the desire to operate at a range most are completely uncomfortable being in.

No demo is perfect but this is an acceptable example of the intercepting nature of attack we use as shown by a woman. This is the nature of the system--directness above all else--if it ain't direct it ain't WCK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1js5eD-1xVM

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"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:56 pm 
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"...........Shutting down the enemy’s ‘launching platform’ is generally the best way to survive a violent encounter.

Questions are: But how to do it effectively_ and who’s to do it?........."


I hate to return to this thread with simple solutions to "complex " problems buuuuuut.....
Ronnie Copeland (KICK World Champion) told me after one of our sparring sessions that".... the front kick I continually threw at his hip every time he tried to kick had severely handcuffed his offense and that that techniqe was defenitely an "ace". :D :D

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:51 pm 
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robb buckland wrote:
"...........Shutting down the enemy’s ‘launching platform’ is generally the best way to survive a violent encounter.

Questions are: But how to do it effectively_ and who’s to do it?........."


I hate to return to this thread with simple solutions to "complex " problems buuuuuut.....
Ronnie Copeland (KICK World Champion) told me after one of our sparring sessions that".... the front kick I continually threw at his hip every time he tried to kick had severely handcuffed his offense and that that techniqe was defenitely an "ace". :D :D


Intercepting legs with legs is big with southern systems.. All kinds of tools there.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:58 pm 
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From this POV one should be afraid to NOT be direct, or to loose facing, or to loose control of the line, or to loose the offensive edge, or to use force on force, or to resist instead of release etc, but not afraid to go in--straight or not--it's what WE do...

Got another method? Good on you..!


Yeah…good on us…we have it in our Uechi style that you have disparaged for years on end on these forums.

>>…like >> Got another method? Good on you..! <<

Yeah …good on us….indeed.

Uechi concepts do all that you mentioned above, but does it in a more efficient manner…read…safer manner for a weaker/lighter woman against a much bigger and stronger opponent.

The Uechi concepts include …. Being direct, not loosing facing, not loosing control of the line, not loosing the offensive edge, using force on force, resisting and going in with confidence --straight or otherwise.

Those concepts are readily apparent in the three main forms of Uechi…provided they are understood.

The main concept at work in Uechi is best described as …

Tai - body
Kawashi - from kawari, to replace.


Much like WC but in a more efficient manner.


Tai - body
Kawashi - from kawari, to replace.

This is the absorption and redirection that Rick was talking about…a concept that is not easily grasped.

You do not teach slight/weaker students to contest the enemy’s force directly or you doom them to the ‘big hurt’ _

You teach them to go in while attempting to remove the body from the danger zone [the opponent’s mass in motion_ his momentum_ not his limb attack] _

Quote:
>> Got another method? Good on you..!


Yeah…we have a better method…

Taking the instance where the defender has not been able to ‘read’ the incoming attack and is faced with a sudden ‘surge of action’ as it often occurs when women are attacked…

The better method is:

1. Enter [Irimi] done in a slightly rotational fashion, moving out of the "strike zone" sideways or obliquely…

Meaning_ upon ‘first touch’ with the attack…you rotate slightly to still face your attacker, but from an angle…

As you move out of the immediate strike zone with slight rotation, you will absorb and deflect…then you replace the strike zone with either an ‘impaling technique’ if you have that ability to create stopping power against a very large, adrenalized opponent_ or…

… Replace the enemy’s strike zone with the
intercepting, trapping, snaring, _ gripping technique.

That technique "fills the
space"

Which means that the vacated space you created by your slight rotation is immediately filled with the above technique…rather than leaving a
vacuum...

No delay involved...it all occurs simultaneously.

The most important concept to bear in mind, for the women reading this...is…that _ in so doing …the strike or momentum of the attacker _ lands in the trap and not on your body.

‘The trap’ you created also allows absorption and deflection, while at the same time giving you a better shot at the opponent who has been unbalanced if you choose to stay in the fight, or must stay in the fight.

We practice this in advanced Bunkai, with a mental attitude ingraining of this ‘replacement factor’ process in mind.

Yeah…’It’s what we do’…

Kind of like holding a bag and telling the student to kick the bag. That's
just what he does.

Then tell him to kick THROUGH the bag. To kick you (the
bag holder) as if the bag was not there, as if the bag was a shadow, an
illusion.

Or to kick the man standing behind you, as if you and the bag
were not there. Much stronger kick. Just the simple attitude or perception in filling or stealing the space makes a huge difference...

Then after the kick goes through the shadow of the bag…you tell him'her _ to stay in contact/stick to you and use rotational concepts to either ‘finish off’ or ‘rotate away’ to safety…most important for women.

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 Post subject: Horse Hocky
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:23 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
Uechi concepts do all that you mentioned above, but does it in a more efficient manner…read…safer manner for a weaker/lighter woman against a much bigger and stronger opponent.


If you say so..

The methods of your system, while similar to wc are clearly harder not softer.. Plus you have no soft/dynamic training elements..

Static concepts are dead concepts.

You want to pretend go ahead.

Any idiot knows WCK is a softer system..a woman's system.

In other words I disagree..

You insist on comparing appendages and being combative?

Okay. You can have the last flood. :lol:

Where are the alive close range dynamic energy drills? Nonexistent.

It's the only way to cultivate all those little inside attributes. Can't learn to do it without doing it--allowing the small to experience taking control of the large via energy and position.

It's very simply something that I have always suggested adding..

And I still do..

And always will..

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"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:41 pm 
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If you say so.. The methods of your system are clearly harder not softer.. Plus you have no soft/dynamic training elements..

You want to pretend go ahead.


You will never understand Uechi because you never gained any in depth exposure to it…yet you continue to pretend to know about Uechi, and defensive tactics.

You continue to bash Uechi without understanding its underlying combative concepts…and you never will…but you want to keep on pretending…so go ahead.

I still don’t understand why in hell you are on a Uechi forum just so you can disparage it. The reasons why you got kicked off Rick’s forum and mine.

You have pretty much overstayed your welcome on these pages, and I am being nice out of respect for the moderator of this forum.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:09 pm 
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I would remind all parties involved that this OP was a discussion of techiniques and all have been reminded once that we are not in a discussion about who's method/style is best. This is not about conversion; it's about learning.

The discussions, without all of the "my system is better/more alive/bigger than yours" has been useful. The negative comments and confrontational back and forth has not.

I appreciate each person's passion for thier art, but I am confident that you are all capable of praising your art and it's benefits without denigrating another. If you have to downplay another to make your point...then perhaps there is worth in both?

Please stick to the techniques and discussion of what you think is best, and leave the comparisons of choice to the practictioner.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:27 pm 
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Excellent points Shana, I agree. :)

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 Post subject: Geeeez
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 5:17 pm 
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I didnt realize we were in an argument about "whose is bigger "....Im sorry I appologized earlier....We all should approach these forums with an "empty cup " ...I find all of you interesting and knowlegable ...but my styles' better than your style COMON !!! :oops: :oops:

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:45 pm 
Yeah certain elements want to get into the My style is better than yours arguments,,,in truth, we need to look deeply at what is being said and see what we can gain from that, how we can develop ourselves and our martial art...learn to look beyond the puff and bluster of folks who are offended and really look deep into what we can truly learn...I have had many teachers.........................doubtless I will have many more, and at 53 with many years of training behind me........folks will/have questioned this.but you can only grow or stagnate...I choose to grow :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:58 am 
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What is the best style for defense?

There is only one correct answer: The style you have practiced hard and learned well.

The Uechi system has all the classic Chinese fighting philosophies : powerful but controlled extension on technique(s) , Economy/feasibility of movement , change body , spacing , circle and point , whipping (relaxation until moment of impact)
Etc.

Uechi practitioners use a couple drills, amongst the many, that are most excellent…here is Bill
Quote:
There's also the issue of what rubbing teaches us about the geometry of inside fighting. At least from the outside, we learn how to feel and respond to an opponent we are in contact with.

We learn to play "chicken" with the line of force, thus setting us up to be where our attacker wishes we weren't. We learn how to touch first with our forearms (rather than our vulnerable hands) to reduce the probability of injury and increase the likelihood of a productive first contact.


And here is Dana
Quote:
An exercise I see as very close to the arm rubbing is the partner circle blocks from both stationary stances and with stepping (either linear or circular.)

What is fun to me in that exercise is that you can explore various planes with the circles you make and observe how your partner moves (or doesn't) in response to the different directions of force.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 3:11 pm 
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"What is the best style for defense?

There is only one correct answer: The style you have practiced hard and learned well. "


Well no not really the style you choose may be cr*p..if you train in a Mcdojo how would you know?...and you would learn stuff that was useless in real world defence. If you look at CQB particularly Sykes and Fairburne you will find that these gentlemen were highly experienced in lots of martial arts among them Boxing,Judo,Jiu-Jitsu..Hsing-I,Tai-Chi and Paqua...coupled to this they worked for the Shanghai police force......although some people seem to think that working for the police is of no benefit.I am not of that opinion :) ....and I do believe that these gentlemen where Proper Experts........then of course there is reflexivity, about which I llstart a thread on Bill's forum shortly :wink:


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 Post subject: Mcdojo
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 4:10 pm 
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"................. What is the best style for defense?
............There is only one correct answer: The style you have practiced hard and learned well............ "


:D If I have no real martial arts experience, and I'm sold well at my school...I may not know I'm Mcdojo trained until it's too late... 8O

That is a scary thought.........would you like fries with that order ?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 4:45 pm 
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Well no not really the style you choose may be cr*p..if you train in a Mcdojo how would you know?...and you would learn stuff that was useless in real world defence.


Sooner or later the smart student would know.

The individuals you mentioned were military commandos…with a different mission.

And their ‘kill the enemy’ research proved very valuable. Their objective was to ‘kill’ _

Totally different than the civilian martial artist with a different focus.

Here is something from an expert that should be on point_
Quote:
The effects and action concept is a powerful training tool. It is an intellectual way to introduce the student into concepts of strategy and tactics.

It’s amazing how much of fighting is mental …and how much is pure imagination.

For many people, violence and their response to it is a staple of their fantasy life…even to the extent of studying martial arts.

They have an image of who they are and what they’ll do if ever faced with violence. This image is cultivated for years, and is a very real aspect of self identity. Very rarely does the fantasy survive contact with real violence. It can be devastating.

Many martial artists change schools or styles looking for the silver bullet. If it is never tested, they have the luxury of becoming fanatical about the new school/style.

Some gave up training because it didn’t work. A very few make the decision that they will be ready next time and start to adjust their training to fit their experience.

________________________________________

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 Post subject: Humble Beginings
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 4:54 pm 
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"......... very few make the decision that they will be ready next time and start to adjust their training to fit their experience....."

This is how I started :cry: :oops: :cry:

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