timing of steps/strikes

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Stryke

Post by Stryke »

Sorry Shana misunderstnding both ways difficult medium , wrong thread to have this discussion

I dont get the teach it wrong to make it easier approach , no express steps just good steps , 20 years so far , and still working on everything .

just have tried new teaching paradigms , and there going great , gets frustrating when folks always pull the it only works for the advanced card , the pedagogy is tested and fine for beginners and advanced alike .

have moved my rant to Vans forum

happy New Year happy training

http://uechi-ryu.com/forums/viewtopic.p ... 20e1121361
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Shana Moore
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Post by Shana Moore »

Stryke,
I'm sorry you moved your rant to another forum, because you have some good points, and it made me go back and read my posts for how I said things. :(

It was NEVER my intention to say "I can't" or "it's too hard". IMHO, those two phrases are useless and self-defeating. It was also never my intention to sound whiny and imply that things were too advanced, and I believe that I did do that in my posts. :oops: So, thanks for pointing that out...we can all use a good kick in the rear from time to time. 8O

I have to agree with you...the medium has its limitations, but I also will apologize for the slightly whiny tone that did creep into my posts. So, let me clarify. Again, this is my opinion, and does not have to be anyone else's.

People learn in different ways. What works for some will not work for others. I DO NOT advocate teaching someone an incorrect way to strike/train, as I agree that's counterproductive and requires "unlearning". I DO, however, advocate and believe that learning things in steps is useful for most beginners. As discussed elsewhere in these forums, breaking down kata into parts and putting them back together can be very useful. I also still believe that this was why Kanbun spent so long on Sanchin and taught it the way he did. I 'm not saying "the way it's always been" is how it should be; however, we should always look to our past and learn from it.

I do not know, having only one group to use for reference, if all teach Kanshiwa and Kanshu as I have noted in my earlier posts; however, I personally found the progression of steps useful.

I, again, agree with you.. ( 8O shocking, I know), that most techniques and steps are fairly simple, once you "get it".
But most simple things, especially elegantly simple things, can be hard to learn because we, as humans, so often overthink them or simply get in our own way. I also believe, that even simple things, require training to do them right...practice practice practice...

I think we are surprisingly in agreement here, but I'm looking at this from a beginner's perspective of still learning things and figuring them out, and you are looking at it from a "been there, done that" perspective.

Walking is an easy concept as well, but it took each of us a while to figure it out, learn, practice, and refine it into our own personal gait. I'm simply saying "simple" is not "easy", and that's a large part of why we are all here. We love the personal challenge and the experience.

I LOVE what I'm learning, and I have so much TO learn...so keep me on my toes. We won't always agree, but it's good to have counter opinions and views...to weigh your own views and consider alternatives, if nothing else.

Thank you.
Live True, Laugh often
Shana
Laird2

Post by Laird2 »

Shana Moore wrote:Laird, perhaps having a military background, you started at a more experienced point than most. Speaking for myself, as a lower belt...the first few months were matter of "getting it", which includes learning some basic body coordination and engaging a new way of thinking.

So, no diss here either, you may not think this is advanced, but not every learns/thinks as you or has your background.
Please do not write me off as some kind of GI Joe Super Ninja Dude. :lol:

Last time I checked the military trained me to put holes in schit with my weapon. They taught me to plant anti personnel devices and anti tank devices. Then they taught me how to dig them out again. They taught me how to dig a hole and live in it. Damn they spent a lit of time teaching me how to use a shovel but they did not put much time in teaching hand to hand. When I left military training I couldn’t fight my way out of a sack. IHMO

I didn’t get any better at fighting until I discovered Uechi and boxing.

We all bring our own personal physical and mental attributes with us when we enter training. This will impact training yes. We all have different learning styles yes. No mater who we are or what we bring we will all encounter things we find difficult.

However discounting my opinion because I’ve had some military training is a cop out.

It’s another version of its too advanced. It’s too hard. It’s also another version of the sempia, kohia BS that permeates martial arts. Seniors and juniors advanced stuff for the seniors and BS for the juniors. Bow and grovel please! Sorry for the Rant!

I took the time to respond to the thread and you write off my opinion because, “I’m ahead of the curve”. Well there might be a few more folks on these pages that are ahead of your curve. What are you going to do hang out a shingle and request only white belts respond to your questions because you won’t consider responses that push your paradigm? What’s that old saying if you don’t want to hear the answer, don’t ask.
IMHO, the early break down in steps is not to teach "weak ass arm strikes", but to make sure everyone has the fundamental building blocks...and in such a way that she/he can figure it out and experience for her/himself.
Shana for the record, I learned my Uechi pretty much the way you are. I just don’t use the same methods to pass it on to my students.

I teach application first and kata 2nd as kata is the method of practicing application without a partner.

I was taught that the Sanchin stance and Sanchin stepping was about protecting the groin and turning the shin away from the attack. What a load of hooey! Today before I teach the kata I teach the student how to attack with the foot work, how to create the spinal imbalances that result in throws and takedowns. So when they can see the purpose of the Sanchin steps before they integrate them into their solo training.

I was taught to step and then strike as a beginner. What a load of hooey!

Today I teach them the chest bump 1st so the student can experience how much energy is delivered with their body mass by utilizing the foot work out of our kata. Then we work on connecting that body weight momentum to the strikes. This occurs in the first class. It doesn’t matter what attributes the student arrives with, they will leave their first class with the basics of how to hit with connected body mass.

I see no value in teaching students to hit with no power. “Weak ass arm strikes” are not fundamental building blocks they are poor habits that will have to be unlearned at a later point in time. Why ingrain poor habits? The karate is in the movement not the posing.

Just a different method, many trails lead up the mountain.
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

Hey Shana , not just your thread , is just a common theme , I`ve been having similar discussions with others .

Cant disagree with much said . Rorys baically agreed , but I think it goes to understanding principles of movement as well as strategy .
I posted that on the other thread , but I`ll respond to the other comments here , and dont worry Shana , just a conversation, even though it`s sometimes a tough crowd , always good to share thoughts , and never personal .


People learn in different ways. What works for some will not work for others. I DO NOT advocate teaching someone an incorrect way to strike/train, as I agree that's counterproductive and requires "unlearning". I DO, however, advocate and believe that learning things in steps is useful for most beginners. As discussed elsewhere in these forums, breaking down kata into parts and putting them back together can be very useful. I also still believe that this was why Kanbun spent so long on Sanchin and taught it the way he did. I 'm not saying "the way it's always been" is how it should be; however, we should always look to our past and learn from it.

I do not know, having only one group to use for reference, if all teach Kanshiwa and Kanshu as I have noted in my earlier posts; however, I personally found the progression of steps useful.

I, again, agree with you.. ( shocking, I know), that most techniques and steps are fairly simple, once you "get it".
But most simple things, especially elegantly simple things, can be hard to learn because we, as humans, so often overthink them or simply get in our own way. I also believe, that even simple things, require training to do them right...practice practice practice...

I think we are surprisingly in agreement here, but I'm looking at this from a beginner's perspective of still learning things and figuring them out, and you are looking at it from a "been there, done that" perspective.

Walking is an easy concept as well, but it took each of us a while to figure it out, learn, practice, and refine it into our own personal gait. I'm simply saying "simple" is not "easy", and that's a large part of why we are all here. We love the personal challenge and the experience.
I think you nailed it , it`s in the overthinking often , and it`s in a lack of understanding often , to me its a questions of removing the theory and introducing the practice , stepping is a perfect example , how many new karate students forget how to walk as soon as you tell them its a kata , In kumites all of a sudden we cannot step back and to the side becuase it`s advanced ... we must take them stright back ...... hmm maybe they have been walking for many years , maybe it`s not so hard ......

maybe its not what we teach but the context we teach it , maybe everytime we break it down it should be to clarify and reinforce a point , not to add a layer of complexity . The only way I know how to make it self evident is by doing it , hitting things , changing the mechanics and feeling the result etc etc

and of course practice/repitition is paramount

As I said , not really about this thread , it` keeps cropping up with many , just thought you deserved a response . Hope all is going well

oh and Happy New Year !!!
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Shana Moore
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Post by Shana Moore »

Laird2 wrote:Please do not write me off as some kind of GI Joe Super Ninja Dude. :lol:
:? DANG! How dissapointing! :lol:
Laird2 wrote: However discounting my opinion because I’ve had some military training is a cop out.

It’s another version of its too advanced. It’s too hard. It’s also another version of the sempia, kohia BS that permeates martial arts. Seniors and juniors advanced stuff for the seniors and BS for the juniors. Bow and grovel please! Sorry for the Rant!
First, I was not discounting your opinion, and I'm sorry if that's how you took it. That was not my intent. Also, no apologies necessary, you made your opening points with humour, reason, and respect.

I think, you may have written this before reading my second post, after Stryke's; however, I really didn't mean to use the military training as a cop out. I meant to state that folks bring different things to training and start at different points. And...after reading my post I saw what the two of you read, and it was a little whiny...not really my meaning..oops :roll:
Laird2 wrote: I took the time to respond to the thread and you write off my opinion because, “I’m ahead of the curve”. Well there might be a few more folks on these pages that are ahead of your curve. What are you going to do hang out a shingle and request only white belts respond to your questions because you won’t consider responses that push your paradigm? What’s that old saying if you don’t want to hear the answer, don’t ask.
Okay, clearly you took my comments more personally than intended, and are striking out a bit personally. Again, please read my recent post. I WANT to hear others opinions and learn..so yes, we need more than just white belts to respond to have a good conversation. HOWEVER, don't think that disagreement with YOUR opinion means that I don't want to hear your opinion. Get a grip. This is a discussion, and everyone has the right to thier opinions, even if their wrong, not fully formed, or just...well..different.

What's REALLY cool, is when people actually read other's opinons, reconsider thier own opinions in light of new ideas, and either learn something new or reconfirm what they originally believed. THAT'S when things get really good!

So, let's not jump to conclusions and assume that someone disagreeing with you is lame,stupid, or wrong. Sometimes, they are learning...and sometimes they might actually have a few things worth considering.
Laird2 wrote: I teach application first and kata 2nd as kata is the method of practicing application without a partner. [...]Today before I teach the kata I teach the student how to attack with the foot work, how to create the spinal imbalances that result in throws and takedowns. So when they can see the purpose of the Sanchin steps before they integrate them into their solo training. [...] Today I teach them the chest bump 1st so the student can experience how much energy is delivered with their body mass by utilizing the foot work out of our kata. Then we work on connecting that body weight momentum to the strikes. This occurs in the first class. It doesn’t matter what attributes the student arrives with, they will leave their first class with the basics of how to hit with connected body mass. [...] Just a different method, many trails lead up the mountain.
These are cool training methods, Laird....and I think your last comment says all that needs to be said!
Live True, Laugh often
Shana
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Shana Moore
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Post by Shana Moore »

Thanks Stryke for your posts in both places...

and thank you all for the good discussion.

Happy New year!
Live True, Laugh often
Shana
hoshin
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Post by hoshin »

personally i don't see what all the huff is about.
since i might have had a hand in stiring the pot let me re -explain my opinion.
seems people get all bent out of shape when someone says the word "advanced" if you re-read my post i made it a point to say I DO NOT WITH HOLD INFORMATION. however i wont tear someone a new a$$ o when doing kata just because they cant step and strike and put the entire package togeather yet. during bag work or striking exersizes yes but during a kata no.. they are still learning the pattern. i will also point out that white to green belt is maybe only 6 months so what is the big deal.
Shana im with you.
i have been teaching in an open public setting since 1985 i have seen people with all different ablitys. there are those who dont know left from right when they first start. people who have a really hard time with simple movements like kyu kumite when you step and punch with the same right side. they cant do it, you tell them to punch to the solar plexus ( show them where it is ) and next thing you know they punch the person next to them because they have no controll over their bodies.
if someone has the ablity to put the power package together at an earlier stage great,
it might be good karate but its bad teaching. there is no better way to emotionaly kill a new student then to give them something they wont be able to do for months or maybe years. let them know what it will look like down the road and explain the concept to them but i dont expect it to happen over night.
hoshin
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Post by hoshin »

somthing i was just thinking ,
the original post was about different ways of stepping during kata,
step then strike, strike and step in unison, step but let the hand make contact before the weight drops on the foot... i had written that i teach these three principals in this order.
so are people here saying that the step then strike is wrong and incorrect?
_______________________________________________________________________
I see no value in not teaching to strike with conected mass.
Why not just teach the student the principle right off the bat? No diss just don't understand why you just don't show them the correct way first.
_______________________________________________________________________
we break it down and teach it incorrectly so folks can figure out it by themselves .... ?//// I dont get the teach it wrong to make it easier approach
_______________________________________________________________________
Laird2

Post by Laird2 »

:microwave:
fivedragons
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Post by fivedragons »

:lol:
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

8O :?
Jeff Cook
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Post by Jeff Cook »

There is nothing "correct" or "incorrect" in teaching all three ways to strike/step, in my opinion - as long as the underlying principles are adhered to.

For example, sometimes you have to step before punching to get within range of the target, AND to throw off the combat rhythm of the engagement. Why be predictable? Mix it up.

Also, who cares if the punch is sub-maximal regarding the delivery of force? Sometimes it is quite sufficient to simply knock the opponent out, without crushing his skull - or strike lightly to throw him off-balance for a follow-up strike and/or a throw.

I think I am seeing a little too much focus on the "maximum power" "one punch one kill" mentality some karate folks spout off about.

Jeff Cook
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Shana Moore
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Post by Shana Moore »

Jeff Cook wrote:Also, who cares if the punch is sub-maximal regarding the delivery of force? Sometimes it is quite sufficient to simply knock the opponent out, without crushing his skull - or strike lightly to throw him off-balance for a follow-up strike and/or a throw.

I think I am seeing a little too much focus on the "maximum power" "one punch one kill" mentality some karate folks spout off about.
Welcome Jeff, this is an interesting point that I'd like to explore further, but I don't want to stop the good discussion here, so I'm going to start a new thread...please expand on this thought in the new thread, "Maximum power a good thing?".
Live True, Laugh often
Shana
Laird2

Post by Laird2 »

Shana:

Okay, clearly you took my comments more personally than intended, and are striking out a bit personally. Again, please read my recent post. I WANT to hear others opinions and learn..so yes, we need more than just white belts to respond to have a good conversation. HOWEVER, don't think that disagreement with YOUR opinion means that I don't want to hear your opinion. Get a grip. This is a discussion, and everyone has the right to thier opinions, even if their wrong, not fully formed, or just...well..different.

Not striking out at all. I’m just being blunt, direct, no jelly centers or sugar coating in my world. If you think this is personal you’ll be in a world of schit if you ever are faced with anything approaching real confrontation. We are just having a conversation. This is all very friendly! I’m enjoying our discourse.

Zoom Zoom but it’s all over your head because your not listening.

You never disagreed with my opinion you said I was ahead of the curve. You put me in a box that said he’s an ex military type guy so he’s different, his experience is different than mine. It works for him because he’s different. It wouldn’t work for me, we are different. Reference Stryke’s rant again it was very on the money! Your far from open minded.

You then restated your opinion, at no point in time have you addressed my comment that one can learn to hit right off the bat. There is nothing to unlearn if you will. Just do it correctly to start with. We got it is to hard, your different, I’m new etc. Please re read Marcus’s rant…it’s one the money! What as GEM’s old tag line there’s no try in do!

So why not explain why it would be impossible for you to learn to step and strike at the same time as a newbie. I’ve managed to introduce the concept with no problems to every newbie I’ve trained since about 99. It’s not really rocket science.

Please don’t accuse me of not listening to you….I’ve invested about a decade in your method, been there done that if you will. Can you say the same about either method? Have you tried my way, considered it, or did you just dismiss it out of hand because it wasn’t your way? Who is not listening here?

Tell you what in about ten years tell me I’ve never done it your way. :wink:

I don’t ask that you try my way, but don’t tell me I’m not listening because as far as I can see I’m the only one in our conversation who has tried more than one method of training. I’ve already walked farther down your path than you have, don’t tell me I’ve not considered your point of view. I’ve lived it, I trained in the same method you have, I’ve even done the progression thru all the kata and drills and worn all the little green stripes. :lol:



I’ll thank you not to imply that I’m lacking a grip on reality. If you were a man or a wee bit more senior, I’d be keen to collect on that statement. :splat: :multi: You are as rude as your teacher. He’s a good one btw! I’m impressed with the questions you are now asking. You’ve come along way since you claimed your tits were too big and asked for advice on how to perform a Sanchin thrust.

This thread is a good one and surprising coming from a newbie. Someone teaching you knows his stuff. Damn Bill what a surprise! :wink: :lol:

Nothing wrong with different that’s why we all compare notes.
What's REALLY cool, is when people actually read other's opinons, reconsider thier own opinions in light of new ideas, and either learn something new or reconfirm what they originally believed. THAT'S when things get really good!
I totally agree! However from time to time you encounter folks that are just wasting your time. I’ll leave it up to your Sensei to guide you, he does a pretty good job. :wink:




Steve


There is no Huff …. However statement’s like this are not appreciated.

if someone has the ablity to put the power package together at an earlier stage great, it might be good karate but its bad teaching. there is no better way to emotionaly kill a new student then to give them something they wont be able to do for months or maybe years.
Who the hell are you to publicly declare I’m a bad teacher because I offer the principles right off the top. Are you familiar with the Japanese term あなたの自己性交は行く! If not, I suggest you run it though babble fish.

I’m sure you will figure out the gist of the concept. It probably won’t take a decade.

Just because I don’t subscribe to your path does not make me a bad teacher. Please reference the Japanese term a 2nd time!

Now Steve please understand I’ll not tolerate any further BS from you. If you continue with these types of comments I’ll become rather direct and confrontational. You’ll only get one warning pal.

I make no claims as to my abilities to perform or teach. How ever I’ll not tolerate some a-hole I’ve never met making those kinds of judgments.

Steve feel free to reference the Japanese term a 3rd time...it should almost feel like Sanchin to you now!

Steve if you’ve been teaching for 24 years and don’t know how to put the power package on the plate sooner, you have my sympathy. You do belong to a large organization; possibly one of your seniors can help you out.

I’m just an average guy. My students are incredibly average. Yet every year my badly taught white belts and green belts manage to defeat IUKF (and other organizations) Dan ranked students…year after year after year.

So who’s the bad teacher?

Personally I don’t think the Sensei’s who produces the Sandans, Nidans, Shodans that have issues getting past my entry level guys are bad teachers. They are just not teaching them properly.

I believe they are spending too much time working on testing requirements and not enough time just teaching them the simple stuff they need to know in order to get thru a fight. Give them principles not drills! Maybe if it didn’t take folks 15 years to teach them to hit they would do better!

Maybe when these guys are Yondan or Godan they will start defeating my new students on a more consistent basis. Maybe after 20 years of training they will become better fighters. But the candle burns from both ends and when they have the skills they may be too old to fight.

Don’t get me wrong, I respect these Dan ranked dudes. Their tough as nails got some awesome skills…but why do they keep loosing to my newbies? I think it’s because they lack principles and strategy. They have some great skills…but some how the system they follow didn’t put it all together for them they can not connect the dots.

My approach has always been to teach Uechi-Ryu as a platform for personal protection. No no no Steve…not like what you carry in your wallet…I’m talking self defense here.:lol:

I live in a very transient town. Most students only live here for a short while. I try to give them a few skills that may help them out of a tough situation as they travel. I don’t have the luxury of 2 decades to teach them to be warriors. We start on the first day and build from there. Why is it bad to teach them to be effective right off the bat Steve. I suggest it’s bad not too!

Please re revisit the lesson あなたの自己性交は行く! Three times per day until you’ve got it mastered. If you want to spend 15 to 20 years on the project be my guest.

Elvis has now left the building!
hoshin
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Post by hoshin »

wow now that is a 1st class rant.
this is a public forum and everyone has a right to their oppinion. yours is just as vailid as mine.
however laird you missed a few points
1... i dont disagree with you.
2... i never said you PERSONALLY were a bad teacher.
3...i no longer belong to a big orginization, i just have friends there.
what i HAVE been saying is that during kata it is very difficult for a new student to time the step with the strike.
and that to insist that a student do something that IS ( not that this concept is but ,,,could be) beyond their capability at that particular time is in my oppinion bad teaching,,, if it kills the students motivation,self esteem and their desire to continue training because they feel they will never get it. i will say again i DO teach the step strike concept ,except during kata.

now for those of you who feel im a big @$$ O i would like an example of a white or green belt KATA that you feel represents your concept of step and strike at the same time.
remember DURING A KATA ....this is what i have been saying the entire time ,,,not concepts not drills not real life.... KATA.

now i think you will find that in white and green kata maybe even brown belt kata that 99.9 % of the time you are actually doing three things ,,steping or sliding , BLOCKING , and then striking . the uechi norm is to step then block or step and block same time,,, however what i have been saying if not well written is that doing the stike with the step is somewhat difficult because within that action you also have to fit in the block and again the norm is to step with the block not the strike.

so i will apologize for pissing off people.
however,, your right ,,,im right ,,,we just need to put emotions aside and understand what we are really trying to express even if it is in a limited written framework.
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