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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:45 pm 
Jeff Cook wrote:
I'm not much of a bunkai adherent either, probably due to my amateur level in karate. So I know where you are coming from there (although I DO use yakusoku kumite - among other training vehicles).

I don't know if it is right or wrong, but I firmly believe that kata, drills, and pre-arranged fighting (even free-form with rules) are all the same. In my mind they are all drills - they are governed by rules and parameters on how to conduct each one.

I'll stop now before I contribute any more to thread drift and look stupid. :wink:

Jeff Cook
Good comments Jeff. I agree no matter how hard we strive to make training methods valid and realistic, there must be a certain level of cooperation or we would just run out of meat puppets to train with.

Nothing wrong with these training methods...however I feel the formal bunkai in Uechi are unrealistic IMO, jumping over swords , picking folks with shoken fists and using them to block sword strikes. Quite frankly I always felt like a voyeur exploring someone else’s martial fantasy.

The yakusoku drills are two scripted for me they occur at long range. I see my art as a clinch fighting style, a stand up grappling method. But I see the drills as training at a distance that does not last in the real world. The drills take place out side of the range most fights start at.

Every thing is a step away to deliver a strike. The drills don’t fit with some of the muckie muck’s description that Uechi ryu is telephone booth fighting. Personally I just see them as unrealistic , it’s predicated on the assumption that you can keep the EBG at a distance of your choosing. Unfortuantely we know the other guy has a say in the matter too.

The drills might have been orriginal an introduction to the sport of point fighting. They have that feel. Long distance and end with the first scoring blow.

I believe somewhere on Van’s page there’s a war that raged for a year or so and went on for 70 or 100 pages . It’s called the k bash; turns out some folks support these training methods with an almost religious fervor. It’s a tough read however as there was some rather creative editing taking place and lots was deleted.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:56 pm 
http://www.uechi-ryu.com/forums/viewtop ... 1c5fa8f3cf

K-bash thread , links on Vans page too


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:00 pm 
hoshin wrote:
i was saying i wish i had a cam because i am not the best typest and it takes me awhile to type all that out. it would have been much easier for me to film my action and post it.


It's a great way to communicate Steve.. The highlanders regularly email film clips back and forth as part of our discussions.

However my experience on the forums has been clips are met often with a resounding silence. I don't know if folks think the material is crap and they are being polite. (Because folks are always so polite :lol: ) Or possibly they just don't get it, but I stopped posting clips here years ago because it just wasn't forth the time and effort, it did nothing to advance the conversation.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:22 pm 
Shana Moore wrote:
Laird, while you are sometimes as diplomatic as a mack truck (we all have our days :lol: ), you've posted some good thoughts and interesting viewpoints...so keep them coming. Yes, I would like to keep the language on this forum at a respectable level, becuase I believe all intelligent adults can express themselves without extreme cussing. I don't expect you to wear white gloves and stick your pinky out...just keep the language to PG-13 as much as possible and show respect to other posters. Thanks!
Glad to hear that Shana, as I see myself as being open and honest. I see the world of diplomacy as the world of lies decite and word games and threats. So thanks for the compliment! Yes I'm direct, why would one choose not to be.

Thanks for the pardon on the white gloves, I'll save the pinky deployment to drive the muckie mucks crazy during kata.

Be advised that disagreeing with other posters is not disrespectful. But public insults will be adressed.

You don't want me moderating my language to pc13, have you seen a movie recently? :lol:

Please stop moderating me. You made your point don't bypass the filter.

I'm not stupid tell me once! You've done that. Now let it lie. Stop badgering me about it!

This is starting to have the optics of a witch hunt. Your a moderator not a bully, stop micro managing me. I've had enough, get lost.

Please feel free to engage in the conversation but stop the lecture. I don't tolerate control freaks ...clear enough? Do your job and then get out of my face.


Now to steel from another post nuff said!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:10 am 
Anyone feel like they tried to pet a porcupine?

I can be done.

Just be nice to the porcupine.

Porcupines are very easy going.



Image

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Just remember don’t rub them the wrong way!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:39 am 
Quote:
Originally posted by hoshin i was saying i wish i had a cam because i am not the best typest and it takes me awhile to type all that out. it would have been much easier for me to film my action and post it.


I Agree , a few of us have resolved to break out the samera more htis year , Chris McKaskell has got one and jumping in , It`s a great learning sharing tool , why not give it a go .

Still waiting for Bills Sanchin clip too , must be almost ready !!!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:04 am 
hoshin wrote:
for simplicity lets stick with Kanshiwa. Because that is what I was mostly thinking of anyway. There are three turns in the beginning each with a wa- uke and punch. From my previous perspective reading your posts I would have to assume you teach white belts to ..
turn to their left ,starting with their head to see the attack, then block ,step and punch all at one time? so they all land together?

let me know if this is how you do it or if different, how you do it because i would like to finish my thought once i can understand better where yo uare coming from.

steve
I'll let Rick speak for himself. But I'll also answer your question from the Banff perspective I believe it is similar to Both Ricks and Marcus’s point of View. Marcus doesn’t bother with this kata, but he’s familiar with it and the concepts contained within.

I don't teach this kata at the moment either but have in the past.

1. Block it is not a word I use, as soon as a movement is labeled as block all other applications tend to fall by the wayside.

2. The answer to your question is “D” all of the above. It all depends what principles and what techniques one is exploring as they perform the kata.

3. Yes I train white belts to land on the weapon. I focus on the harmonies to generate power via movement. The hands and feet move as one. The knees and elbows move as one. The qua opens and closes together (the shoulder and hips move as one, open and close together)

What does this mean? It means we try to utilize the strength generated by the transitions between the karate posses. We try to connect the momentum of mass to our technique.

Lots of people focus on the techniques the end result...what the strike is. But the karate occurs in between all those end results and this is an area I pay a great deal of attention to in my kata training. This is the area that holds the principles that makes stuff work.

So case in point:

A)

We have a turn of the head, a sliding turn with a circular motion of the major hand of the wauke and a straight delivery of the shoken fist with the rear hand.


I think the traditional performance of this movement is well demonstrated in the traditional Bunkai. This is turning the head, step, block strike. The application is to look, step into range, deflect a straight attack and counter with your own. I believe the traditional format focuses the individuality of each movement in the sequence in order to teach the rooting of the stance and the pulling in of the attacker to the strike.

Nothing wrong with this, it’s valid. Good solid white belt karate in most of the Uechi world.

But is it likely to happen? An attacker stepping in with a punch… a defender turning and entering clearing the punch and throwing their on own but hardly reaching the target. Could it be they are too far away? Look closely, no need to deflect the punch it will never arrive. Not a diss just something to keep an eye out for in the Bunkai

Example

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKiUrnGc3Zw


So in the Traditional look at this white belt kata we have turn block pull punch.

I believe that in a real committed attack the defender would get eaten alive as it’s too slow and there is no body mass mechanics behind the block or the punch…it’s not effective.

Keep in mind this is not a diss it’s my opinion.

B) Let’s try training this sequence differently…turn the head attack!

In this case we would train the beginning student to finish the wauke circle with the step in order to put some power in it. For the wauke to be a preemptive strike it needs some mass behind it, in this case we connect with the throat, jaw with our forearm. We get in before the opponent’s punch. We do not need a clearing movement so the clearing movement grab becomes a solid strike not delivered with rotor cuff muscles, delivered with the power in the step.



C) Okay this time we are not going to be faster than our opponent, we are going to start before them. When we turn to look we read bad intent and just go. This time we will time everything to end at the same time. So because we enter first we get deeper with the wauke and it becomes a strike to the side of the head back of the head, the returning of the elbow to proper Sanchin position pulls the aggressor into the forward void creating some balance issues. The shoken strike shears the rib cage belly or hip creating a spiral throw.

So same sequence of movement but the power focus and timing changes depending on what you wish to utilize the kata platform to train. It’s not religion its martial shadow boxing it’s meant to be tinkered with.

Yeah Steve the written word is a tough way to discuss this stuff. I’ll try and shoot a few minutes of film next class and send you a clip.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:52 am 
Hoshin:

“Rick
so if i am understanding this , you feel the standards are slipping and that white and green belts should be held to a higher standard then what has been shown in some peoples public movie clips.
i agree. should we teach beginers to drop mass into their punches when they step forward ( is this the picture you have in mind or are you thinking more?) ,,,yes i agree. reading all of you guys threads from this mind set i would have been right on board with it.”

Ohh very different thread and I really would prefer not to stir up anything more unwelcome over here.

I will only say my point on that very different thread was the drills regardless of my opinions we very poorly taught to this young lady who clearly worked hard and I found that horrible.

I think from your statement we agree on a lot more than may have come across to folks reading the threads (or even us. 8) )

I believe that we can teach at a higher expectation that some might.

I don’t see stepping back to the side any more difficult than stepping straight back.

If they struggle with one then the struggle with both.

And some do but when they get it then they have what I want them to have.

I teach doing the moves in transition from day one.

I teach striking with mass from day one.

Etc.

There is a lot that cannot be taught from day one and people will struggle with this just as they might struggle with which foot is in front left or right.

But expect them to move and do the Wuake and when they get I then that is what they are doing.

This is just one guy way up in Canada’s opinion – take it for whatever you feel it is worth. :P


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:48 pm 
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Wow...I LOVE it when light dawns :wink: ...thanks Laird for the clear descriptions on the differences in teaching...as that clears up a lot of what all of you were talking about...and it is a significant difference. Much to consider and try out in practice and training. 8O :)
<><><>
I think clips are immensely helpful, because writing it down (and following it) can be confusing. FWIW, I know most clips posted are Youtube clips. When I check the forum from work (most of the time), I cannot access these clips. I'm probably not alone in this blockage of access. Sometimes, watching them later can get lost in the mix. I would still encourage folks to film and post, as that's useful when you are researching a technique or idea. It ALWAYS helps to have points of reference to check and learn from.
<><><>
Rick,
I may be missing something, but please don't feel bad about bringing up the issue of white/green belt standards on this forum. While I, myself, am still a beginner and have a limited experience to compare training to, the discussion is welcome. There are many folks, hopefully, who are lurking out there, and can learn and participate in this type of discussion as well.

We can open another thread if this thread drift creates interest in more discussion (a quick search didn't show a specific thread on this topic, but lots of related discussions.)

FWIW, I am willing to bet that standards have dropped...for many reasons, but the main one being that many folks are looking to this as a form of exercise, and not a serious martial form....add in McDojos and buy a belt factories and many newer folks may not expect high standards.

For me, I started training as a way to satisfy my interest in martial arts, explore my more aggressive side, as well as get in shape. I've discovered that I need to do a lot of training to get myself into the physical and mental shape I feel is needed. I can't say if I'm held to high standards compared to other people or groups, having no personal comparison, but I know that I expect more of myself the longer I train. I've got a long way to go, and am probably in that "just keep working at it" set of folks, but I love what I'm learning! I think high standards, with lots of good instruction, are a good thing. But you have to have both, or you just discourage and frustrate the students.

Thanks all (Rick, Jeff, Steve, Laird, Stryke) for your input on this thread, some good discussions going on!

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Shana


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:06 pm 
8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:33 am 
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Laird ,,yes thankyou for the details. i will say i do it differently ,HOWEVER the important concepts you are using i also use.
i will also say what i teach looks nothing like the you tube clip. first off from day one i want students to punch thru the target. ( you meantioned this as well) the people in the clip seem to be punching at an imaginary line or the shell of the person. the way i learnt and teach is you are driving thu with your punch. if the person in the defensive spot does not get off line from the attack they are going to be run over and really eat the punch. there is a penality for not dealing with the attack correctly. oh btw i am not a big fan of the term block either which is why i have been refering to it as a wa-uke. but what ever you call it is not as important as what you do with it. so if i call it a block at least people know what part of the action i am talking about.
i pesonaly find the circle hand so slow, i dont even consider it for the defensive action. i use it as a controlling action clamping down on the shoulder area, big handfull of gi, shirt hair what ever. but only after the top or in this case the right hand parrys the stright line punch. since the original attacker is really punching to put a whole thru the target the steping turn almost puts you behind the attacker. and the circle can really push the attacker off balance , lots of pushes and pulls a barage of punches can rain down on him. i dont care what kind of punch you use, karate reverse punch. big over hand right, shovel hook happens to be my favorite..
im out of time for now will right more latter
love the flow of ideas now!!!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:38 am 
Good post , thats Uechi !!!

Quote:
i pesonaly find the circle hand so slow, i dont even consider it for the defensive action. i use it as a controlling action clamping down on the shoulder area, big handfull of gi, shirt hair what ever. but only after the top or in this case the right hand parrys the stright line punch. since the original attacker is really punching to put a whole thru the target the steping turn almost puts you behind the attacker.


thats karate , waukes were never for plucking punches out of the air IMHO


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:19 am 
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ok to finish my thought,,,
now all of this is great stuff but the original post was about timing. what i had originaly said was using the step to dump power into the strike. might be to many layers ( i will delete the word advanced) for a white belt. this is how i like to do this...
the kata is the kata it has its limits granted. but the bunkai is more limiting. so i would prefer that the first outside attacker use his right hand to throw a punch. this will change the game. now the circle works much better. i think it can be used much more effectivly against the attacker on your left side when he is throwing that over hand right. you can then in all one motion step off line ( and in), use your left arm to circle ( small and direct not a big loopy thing) wa-uke and use your right hand to strike a shoken right to the neck or laranx area.
rememer i mentioned the Bob Cambell over hand ripping action shoken, well i personlly dont use the flat seiken fist in kanshiwa. no other kata uses it so i like to keep with the chinese idea not to mention i think i can use it to do more damage in this instance.

i can do more detail later if requested. but also as a side note i dont do and dont teach my students to chamber the punch like in the you tube clip. i prefer to have my arms in a more boxer style gaurd and throw from there.

steve


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:11 am 
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It is interesting to read this thread. Nuff said...

I would have to agree that somewhere in the codes of conduct we are to be somewhat respectful in our wording. We all are human and we all have our own opinions, which is perfect for forums. Just remember though there are unsupervised eyes that are on this site. Even if you feel it isn't important on how things are worded please remember our future is out there looking up to us grownups, let's all do our best as a team to keep setting good examples :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:45 am 
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if you break the konshiwa actions down to basic steps i still think you can do "correct" actions. to turn and block then pause for a 2 mississippi then punch. you can still have correct power concepts. but to layer the 3 actions would be the next step. i always learned ..contact , controll, counter. now what i am trying to do is reduce the duration of time between the three.
thru time and practice you can "play" and change your timing. maybe the emphisis will be a 3 count, maybe a 2 count putting a lot of power in the ripping wa-uke. or like i was explaining have a one count.
i think your timing will change depending on your aplication. the more details of application you have in your mind the better you can apply different complex timing layers. i tend to think this is why beginers dont always have good machanics. they are learning an action for the actions sake not learning to applly aplications of machanics and timing to real life situations. this brings us back to the belt standards,, is the teacher teaching so the student will pass the test ( this is a problem in MA. public schools teaching to pass the state MCAS test) or is the teacher teaching the student so they actually learn something.
_______________________________________________________________________

Lots of people focus on the techniques the end result...what the strike is. But the karate occurs in between all those end results and this is an area I pay a great deal of attention to in my kata training. This is the area that holds the principles that makes stuff work.
_______________________________________________________________________

i really like this idea.
_______________________________________________________________________
So same sequence of movement but the power focus and timing changes depending on what you wish to utilize the kata platform to train. It’s not religion its martial shadow boxing it’s meant to be tinkered with.
______________________________________________________________________

so why not take the exersize one step more .. in my first example the original attacker ( on ukes left) throws a left punch. my second example which adds more complex timing layers, has the attacker punch with their right ( which would be more common but not exclusive) but then maybe we could loosen up the limitations and let the attackers punch with either hand at any target.

with all of these options your timing in contact controll counter might really be challenged.


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