timing of steps/strikes

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Postby Shana Moore » Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:54 pm

hoshin wrote:i think your timing will change depending on your aplication. the more details of application you have in your mind the better you can apply different complex timing layers. i tend to think this is why beginers dont always have good machanics. they are learning an action for the actions sake not learning to applly aplications of machanics and timing to real life situations. this brings us back to the belt standards,, is the teacher teaching so the student will pass the test ( this is a problem in MA. public schools teaching to pass the state MCAS test) or is the teacher teaching the student so they actually learn something.
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Lots of people focus on the techniques the end result...what the strike is. But the karate occurs in between all those end results and this is an area I pay a great deal of attention to in my kata training. This is the area that holds the principles that makes stuff work.
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i really like this idea.


Steve,
I like these ideas, and don't see any reason why kata and bunkai can't be tinkered with, after the intial concept is learned. I would think that playing with the concepts is the whole point of doing kata/drills, etc....othewise, as you say, you are playing to the test and not the end goal of learning useful skills that can be applied in various ways.

If you ever get a chance, I would love to see some clips posted, so we could compare the actions. You do a good job of explaining..but you know what they say about a picture worth a thousand words....

will post more later, but enjoying this thread!
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Postby hoshin » Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:19 pm

something i learned from listening to Jim Rohn a business philosophy speaker ,he said...

" my mentor said to me ...set your goal to become a millionare. then he added ...for what it will make of you to get there. you see he added this little refinement to the statement. that changes the entire way you look at it. he said because once you make the million you can give it away. its what you BECOME thats important. if you "become" then you can make another million if you want."

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in the same way just trying to learn a kata or a drill or a kumite should not be the goal.. its what you BECOME that is important.
once you become ( what ever you want to call this ,,maybe a true martial ARTIST?) you can throw the kata away and do somthing else.
this is the old Bruce lee quote about using the boat to get to the other side , once you get there dont carry the boat around on your back.

and maybe this is what Laird was saying about the space between.
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Postby nosib » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:20 am

"Forest for the trees" Well,after 43 years of Uechi, I still
feel the primary function of a wauke IS infact,to pluck a
punch out of the air!!!......after that elementary and important
function it can be WHATEVER.

If you find it too slow....maybe you are making it too large.
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Postby Chris McKaskell » Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:20 pm

nosib wrote:"Forest for the trees" Well,after 43 years of Uechi, I still
feel the primary function of a wauke IS infact,to pluck a
punch out of the air!!!......after that elementary and important
function it can be WHATEVER.

If you find it too slow....maybe you are making it too large.


I train Uechi, with David Mott, and I train Taiwanese Golden Eagle Claw (GEKF or golden eagle kung fu), with a very traditionally trained master of that style.

Each helps to inform the other.

What I find most interesting are the many different interpretations of what effectively appears to be the same material.

So GEKF works with several different blocks for long range, sort range, breaks, controls, attacks and defences.

But the Uechi guy in me sees clearly that all these different blocks are really only one: the wauke.

I am completely at peace with this observation. 8)

Sorry, we've drifted - I just wanted to grab that comment before the discussion moved on.
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Postby hoshin » Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:14 am

Nosib , i hope you dont see this as a negitive but ,,,wow i had no idea you were an old timer. i will have to pay more attention i guess.
but as for as a drill goes, i am not making it to big. i can do it fine as a drill unless i have a super fast guy throwing the punch. but i tend to look at the true reaction time that the body can produce. it is only a quarter second. your mind has to go thru OODA sequence. if it takes you a quarter of a second to react and the puncher should be able to make contact in a quarter second as well, any thing that is lagging your action down is going to get you knocked out.

try this , as someone else sugested in an other thread. make the attackers throw in a random sequece rather then the normal bunkai and i think you will agree.
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Postby MikeK » Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:49 am

hoshin wrote:it is only a quarter second. your mind has to go thru OODA sequence.


Not really. Usually you'll only go through part of the OODA sequence by-passing Decision going right to Act from Observation and Orientation. The Orientation and Decision parts will sometimes be addressed long before the guy throwing the punch is within range. It's the “implicit guidance and control” arrows in the diagram. In some ways you can think of Orientation and Decision as being worked out during practice.

Image

In notes from his talk Organic Design for Command and Control, Boyd said:
"The second O, orientation – as the repository of our genetic heritage, cultural tradition, and previous experiences – is the most important part of the OODA loop since it shapes the way we observe, the way we decide, the way we act. "

So Orientation is kind of the filter the other three go through.

We now return you to the thread already in progress. :lol:
Last edited by MikeK on Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby nosib » Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:58 am

Hoshin,my goal is to be a really really old timer!
Reading some of what you have posted convinces
me that you are on the correct path and must be
associated with great teachers. You study your
karate and not just do it.
My emphisis in Uechi leans to the traditional...all the
routines taught textbook, but practiced and applied
with our particular dojo spice. Hard ,fast and ugly and
as fight like as possible.
I like the fact that there many flavors of Uechi..the different
ways of looking at the same thing. Even though I don't
agree with ideas sometimes,I still appreciate the effort some
are doing to cut through the proverbial MA BS to make
Uechi the best it can be.
Yea,getting old....I'am that 3/10 of a second slower the
last several years and some of my students think they are
scoring on me now when actually I'am headbutting their
punches!!! :D :D :D
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Postby hoshin » Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:14 pm

thanks mike for the info and diagram. i was hesitant to mention OODA , because i know many would not know what i was talking about. i have limited time to make postings during work hours. i didnt want to spend a lot of time expaining so thank you for doing that for me. i think i will try to print out that diagram.
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Postby Shana Moore » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:37 pm

slight thread drift is fine when such good points are being made..and i'm printing out that diagram as well..good stuff!
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Postby MikeK » Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:42 pm

Glad to help Steve. The OODA is sometimes over-simplified when it's a lot richer model, and not as restricting than usually described.8)

Shana, You can think of this thread as part of the Orientation node of the OODA. 8)
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