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 Post subject: timing of steps/strikes
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:16 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:42 pm
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Location: Virginia
On another site/forum, I saw an interesting question and wanted to put it here with a few thoughts:

This person was trained in three different ways (at different dojos) for timing her punches/steps. They were:
* Step, then strike
* Strike at the same time you step
* your strike lands just before your foot lands
<><><>
Now, in my recent training/reading, I can see different reasons for doing each of these. Some of them involve the level of training/practice, some involve the application/combination of force, and some involve the combination/goal you are seeking.

In any case, I think this could be an interesting discussion. Your thoughts?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:06 pm 
Quote:
* your strike lands just before your foot lands


It depends on what your doing but basically this is the hardest impact .

but if your in close already there is no step is there ?

but breaking down and seperating the movement/strike from the step is generally IMHO poor mechanics . You can come up for reasons , but often this is just robot ryu kata , broken down too far .

the karate lies in the transitions .


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:31 am 
Simplified force is the speed at which your strike is travelling at impact and the mass you deliver in the strike.

Given these two factors the greatest mass is delivered if your strike lands just before your foot and you must land it in movement to maximize the speed therefore you should not step then strike.

To step then strike is wasted energy.

This is action in the transitions that should be present in Kata and transferred to application.

Just an opinion. :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:53 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 4:43 pm
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Location: London, Ontario
Hey Rick and Marcus - a question: the space of time between landing the strike and landing the step is measured in mere fractions of a second -- true?

Could it be that, since it's tough to measure or see that gap -- one needs to feel it, so that to the less sensitive or observant student it seems as if the two happen simultaeously?

Subtle stuff -- sure illustrates the value of a really good instructor.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:24 pm 
Yup it`s tiny , its just another way of ensuring sinking on the strike .

you can visualise dropping the lead leg into a hole , slam it down . Drop step


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:07 am 
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while i agree with the strike milli seconds before the landing of the step, i belive that this is somewhat an advanced concept. not that you cant explain it to a white or green belt but their time could be better spent on other things.
so i teach white belts step then strike. i teach green and brown to start timing the strike and step so they end together. then at around black belt i would get them to squeek out a little more power by hitting right before the foot. the only exception might be a step action that is really a type of foot attack , sweep or something that needs to precede the hand.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:23 am 
Beginners can get this straight away , have them hit something and stomp there foot as they step and strike , they can do the timing and they can start to develop a feel right away .

I dont think theres anything more advantageous to a beginner than power generation and hitting hard , without that its all useless

why wait till blackbelt to learn the best way to do a vanilla punch ?


But all JMHO


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:45 am 
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Location: London, Ontario
Thanks.

Another version of the 'classic step then strike' is to allow the step to launch the strike -- imagine sliding forward and the strike originates as a reverse shoken off the back leg once the foot is recovered.

Less power, but it jumps out unexpectantly.

Could this be an example of a more advanced version of the step then strike scenario taught to beginning students?

Or is it still preferable to land the strike first?

It's something that's been on my mind lately -- I'd appreciate your opinions please...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:02 am 
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Stryke
sometimes students have problems just remembering kata never mind aplying other concepts. so during kata i feel it is easier to let them step then strike. like i said i wouldnt withhold the info i just wouldnt call them on it during kata. i would however try to get them to work this during pad work or something.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:05 am 
Hey Chris your referring to a slide yes ? or just a reverse punch ala gyaku zuki ? .

If I`m reading it right I say still hit before the landing , I actually unweight the front leg , and then drop into it deeper and compress with the strike , you can also use the foot stomp as a learning tool to get the dropping feel .

Hope I read the question right ? , it`s a very shotokany thing to me , flash backs , deeper lunge slide up and bam ......


Last edited by Stryke on Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:10 am 
Quote:
Stryke
sometimes students have problems just remembering kata never mind aplying other concepts. so during kata i feel it is easier to let them step then strike. like i said i wouldnt withhold the info i just wouldnt call them on it during kata. i would however try to get them to work this during pad work or something.


yeah good call , I work the pads first then take everything back to kata , so it`s kind of a different paradigm . Different methods different folks , I think stringing together little reinforcements is very helpfull though , the stomp gives kinetic , and noise feedback , and timing the hand and foot encourages the development of the harmonies ( a primary focus to our aproach ) the more personal stimulus you can create the easier it`s absorbed IMHO , kind of like the opposite of fighting where to much from others is distracting .

But I digress .


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:11 am 
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Posts: 454
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Chis..
i can understand your idea. it would be a much faster strike like you sugest. i think that with this technique you would have to be close to the guy. to the point that you really didnt need a step to move you thru space to reach him. your foot would be moving forward for a follow up maybe?
i also think that a power punch is not ALWAYS the most important factor. a nice shoken to the neck works well. you dont need to crush bones with every punch.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:16 am 
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its funny you say "noise feed back" i have the habit of giving vocal clues to students to get the "feel" of the action. i sometime sound like an an old episode of batman ,, bam,,, pow , kablam


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:24 am 
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I think we all are guilty of that one from time to time 8) :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:27 am 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmyGEBdEsks

Chris ?


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